UESPWiki talk:Skyrim Houses Redesign Project

A strange member

Dreamshadow (All Displayed Merchandise sections), a strange member, right? Yeah, I'll be glad to save your coins, so leave the business for me. If your are working on a store page, feel free to check my sandbox. I'll finish them as soon as possible. Feel free to make any requests if you need any related information in a hurry or just tell me which page should be written in advance to meet your need. I'll write some complete pages sometime, if I think my English is ok for me to start a new page. Dreamshadow (talk) 23:48, 21 April 2013 (GMT)

I would like to help...but

Hey fellow UESP members, I would love to help with the Oblivion and Skyrim projects. But I am awful with all the computer commands and things like that for this website could someone send me a message stating all the basics? Thanks AlphaArgonian182

Hi AlphaArgonian! The help pages contain plenty of useful information to help get you started, including how to edit pages, how to use wiki formatting and markup, and our in-depth style guide. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact a mentor. Thanks! ⇠eshe^talk 14:31, 29 April 2013 (GMT)

When will it be moved to needs to be checked

I have edited the page about the hunters rest, but when will it move to the next stage? — Unsigned comment by SergeantPAIN703 (talk • contribs) at 21:25 on 23 April 2013‎

It did once you moved your name from checkedby to writtenby. It moved from "...Needing Cleanup" to "...Needing Checking". – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 21:44, 23 April 2013 (GMT)

Template

I have created a new SHRP notice template that I propose be used in place of the current one. My new template is located here on the top half of the page. For reference I have put the current template on the bottom. --Ad intellige ^(talk) 21:41, 23 April 2013 (GMT)

Hey there. Let me explain why I created the current template. First of all, many people complain that the project tags are too huge and overcomplicated when it is quite simple to click a link and see what you are supposed to do. Second, I limited the process of the SHRP to two stages only (writing and checking) so there's no real need for a big template - it's a very simple project actually and a giant tag would be a bit... weird, for lack of a better word. I understand where you are coming from, but smaller tags = more visible articles, especially when the project is so simple. --Krusty (talk) 21:49, 23 April 2013 (GMT)

Crops?

Hey everybody! As part of the SHRP we need to list all the crops that belongs to the numerous farms (and some houses) in Skyrim and Solstheim. Since it’s a bit tedious to run around and count crops, I was wondering if it was easier in the CK? If anybody can have a look, I would be most grateful. If possible, a project sub-page like this would be the niftiest thing in the world! Thanks in advance! ☺--Krusty (talk) 09:58, 17 May 2013 (GMT)

Sounds good, I think I've got another chance to show my membership in this lovely project. Yeah, I'd like to finish this work in-game. Maybe a well-formatted example would be welcome for me. Dreamshadow (talk) 11:36, 17 May 2013 (GMT)

Brilliant! I'll get busy right away. I'll hit you on your talk page when I'm done. --Krusty (talk) 12:16, 17 May 2013 (GMT)

The CK would definitely make it easier. The only trick will be to make sure you look at any adjoining cells as well if a farm/whatever spans more than one cell. Glad to hear someone's on this already, though, cuz I seem to be down for the count atm. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 17:00, 18 May 2013 (GMT)

Hey RH! A very belated response, but I had to figure out how to sort them – and it resulted in more confusion. However, I have a question. In your post above, you’re saying something about "making sure you look at any adjoining cells as well if a farm/whatever spans more than one cell". Now, I’m no CK expert – and both Dreamshadow and myself use cslist for data. I would, however, ask if it was somewhat possible to extract a list of houses that has “crops” attached to them - from the CK? With crops I mean all the usual ones (like wheat and cabbage and what have we), but also eggs, and maybe even animals? If it is possible to create such a list we would have something to work from – and it would make it easier to make a decision. --Krusty (talk) 22:12, 28 May 2013 (GMT)

I can't think of an easy way to list them, no. When you're talking about interiors, it's easy, because each interior has a clear "parent" location. With exteriors, there's no such "parent"—you'd literally have to double-click on each farm/house and then count the relevant plants that are in that cell or close to it. I don't think I've got what I'd need to in the bot, either, and even if I did, it'd be pure guesswork as to whether a plant near a farm/house actually belonged to it or just happened to be in a nearby area. If someone's got a better suggestion of how to go about it, I'm all ears, but I think we're looking at doing this one by-hand. In retrospect, even with the CK, it's dubious whether you're getting much benefit over in-game. In-game, you just run around and count things. In the CK, you have to check nearby cells as separate things from the cell the house/farm is in, though your count may be slightly faster and probably more accurate. Either way, it's going to be a lot of work for very little benefit, I think. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 02:09, 29 May 2013 (GMT)

I see. So basically, we’re looking at categorizing the farm houses somehow (back to the Land of Confusion post on your talk) to get a list of where to look. Since a task like that is overwhelming in-game (the counting of crops in a given location is not a problem), can you think of a way to somehow get all farmhouses categorized - or maybe just a way to compile a list? --Krusty (talk) 07:09, 29 May 2013 (GMT)

From my point of view, it wouldn't be much trouble to get the list and count them in game. In fact, I've made a list here, a full list with nearly every possible location. However, it may be really difficult to get them in CK. After all, we need not only crops, but also eggs and ingredients near the house. The counting work would be easy in game. Just remove every food and ingredient in your inventory, travel to a house, collect every plant and egg, check your inventory, then eat all of them and move to next place... Dreamshadow (talk) 07:54, 29 May 2013 (GMT)

Update: An example can be found here (never mind, wrong data, just an example). Any ideas?

(←) Just looking for what the CK considers to be farms, I found 17, and all of them had "farm" in the location name. Since there was nothing unusual there, I just did a search in the bot's database for anything with "farm" in the name, and got a few more. Of course, there could be other locations that don't include the word "farm". I seem to recall several houses and the like include a small garden of crops as well, though I can't think of any specifically right at the moment. Anyway, here are the more obvious farms for starters.

Battle-Born Farm Brandy-Mug Farm Chillfurrow Farm Corpselight Farm Cowflop Farmhouse Dragon Bridge Farm

Hlaalu Farm Hollyfrost Farm Ivarstead Fellstar Farm Katla's Farm Lemkil's Farmhouse Loreius Farm

Merryfair Farm Pelagia Farm Salvius Farm Sarethi Farm Snow-Shod Farm

Old Attius Farm Ienth Farm

There are references to a couple of other farms in the CK (Barleydark Farm and Frost River Farm), but looking at those locations in the CK, I see no farms there at all. I suspect they were removed or never developed. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 02:17, 30 May 2013 (GMT)

Residents

I noticed that headers for Skyrim houses have been changed from "NPCs Living Here" to "Residents" on a number of pages, such as here and here. Is there some discussion and consensus about this somewhere, because I can't find any. From what I know, ever since I joined this wiki a year ago, I have been closely following the style guide and using the "NPCs Living Here" header (which has been there since Nov 2011).

Last year, I remember going through a lot of pages and changing headers on various Skyrim pages (not just houses; possibly forts, camps, caves, mines etc too) so that the headers all say "NPCs Living Here" and are consistent across the wiki. I can't really put an exact number on it; I probably changed around 200-300 pages. Now, a lot of those headers have been changed again.

However, even Oblivion pages (which I never touch) follow this style guide: Aleswell, Applewatch, Blankenmarch, Bleaker's Way, Border Watch, Brindle Home are some examples; I didn't browse through Morrowind, though those pages probably follow the style guide too. There are a lot of Skyrim pages that still follow the style guide too: Amren's House, Belethor's General Goods, Carlotta Valentia's House, Hall of the Dead, Temple of Kynareth are some examples.

I'm not sure why this style suddenly changed—which curiously applies only to Skyrim houses—and I can't find any discussion about it. I strongly suggest the SHRP follow the style guide which has been there since 2011, and also to be consistent with many other Skyrim places, as well as to be consistent across all other namespaces. Also, it looks a little weird that the second-tier header is called "Residents", and the table header is again called "Residents". If you disagree, then a discussion should be started on the style guide page about changing the "NPCs Living Here" to "Residents" across the wiki. ~ Psylocke 03:14, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

I brought this up on the Community Portal not too long ago with no consensus. I personally support Residents as opposed to NPCs Living Here, but this is my opinion. If we can come to a conclusion this time, that'd be wonderful. :) •WoahBro^►talk 03:51, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

Just a quick note, but from what I can see and have emulated in the few house pages I have done, the OBHRP is using the "Residents" header as well (take Heinrich Oaken-Hull's House, which is listed as an example on the project page). I really don't have a preference on which is used, but thought I should point out that this project seems to be leaning toward using the "Residents" header instead of "NPCs Living Here", meaning this trend isn't specific to just this project. Forfeit (talk) 03:59, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

Thanks for the link; I didn't search archived pages. So I see there was a small discussion on the CP, which leans towards using "NPCs Living Here". Anyway, the OBHRP is created by Helenaannevalentine on April 2013. I don't dab into Oblivion pages at all, but I suggest the OB project follow the style guide as well. ~ Psylocke 04:13, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

I really don't know if the OB pages should conform. I guess it depends on how many of the project pages already use Residents or NPCs Living Here and/or an executive decision from the leader of the project. Since Hel is gone, however, this is a bit of an issue because the OBHRP doesn't have a leader (an entirely different issue for another discussion). •WoahBro^►talk 04:26, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

It isn't a matter of how many are already using "Residents", the issue I'm bringing up here is that those that are already using "Residents" be changed to "NPCs Living Here" in accordance with the style guide, which has been around for 3 years, and which I—or rather all editors—closely adhere to.

I can see now that this recent shift in style was due to the creation of the two projects on houses, both created in April 2013. I'm guessing that the style guide was not consulted when coming up with a layout for houses, and that this change in the layout was not mentioned anywhere in the project page, nor was it grounded into a policy or guideline. The project members identified certain pages to be completed "examples" for other editors to emulate, hence resulting in inconsistencies across the wiki. The purpose of this discussion is to restore that consistency; if there is a move to change the policy, then "a discussion should be started on the style guide page about changing the "NPCs Living Here" to "Residents" across the wiki", which is what I mentioned above. ~ Psylocke 04:50, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

(←) I can’t speak for the OB House Project, but I do know that one of the goals of the SRHRP was to get rid of the “NPCs Living Here”-headers. I personally can’t stand the use of the abbreviation ‘NPC’ in articles, as it sounds like game data more than a description of the vibrant world we are trying to document. I also realize that I need to update the project guidelines (not only with the required ‘Residents’ header, but with some other info as well), but will refer from doing so until this discussion is over. Looking through a few house pages in the OB namespace, specifically a few hand-picked ones in Anvil, it is also quite clear that the pages written for the OBHRP uses the expression ‘Residents’ – with very good reason, in my opinion. --Krusty (talk) 05:32, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

As I said in the CP discussion, I'm indifferent to which is used, but I think it's important that the style guide be updated accordingly. There are various aspects of wikis which change over time, and that's okay. If the standard practice is to use 'Residents' and there's a significant reason to do so, then we should update our guideline page to reflect that. IMO, the house projects, being more recent than the guideline page, are a better indicator of what we should be doing, so that particular part of the style guide should be changed. I can go ahead and do so later today if no one has any strong opposition to this. — ABCface^◥ 13:47, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

Okay, true, fair enough. I agree that the wiki changes over time, and I remember arguing with 3 administrators about my layout for my Delphine article, but I'm still not convinced here; maybe we can come to a compromise here too. You and Krusty said that there is "a significant reason to do so" and there is a "very good reason", respectively, but didn't say what they are explicitly. Well, I explained my concerns and reasons above to stick with the current style guide; let's hear yours. ~ Psylocke 02:26, 18 October 2013 (GMT)

Personally I prefer residents, but that is for asthetic reasons (i think it looks neater than NPC living here), but all I want is to know which it should be as the SHRP guidelines tell me to use residents. Biffa (talk) 21:01, 21 October 2013 (GMT)

I'm pretty sure I stated my reasons above, but let me try again: The OBNPCRP was originally made to personalize NPCs and get rid of the game data-like phrasing like 'npc', 'schedule', 'inventory' and so on. It's pretty much the same with the other projects - as a basic rule, they are not to be treated as 'NPCs', they are treated like 'persons'. I know it sounds a bit silly, but that is what the NPC project was all about, and I kind of like it that way. --Krusty (talk) 23:15, 21 October 2013 (GMT)

A very dumb question

I know this is a bad question, but how do I join?--Thrapple (talk) 19:22, 22 December 2013 (GMT)

Just write your name on the bottom of the Project Members List. --Rook (talk) 19:35, 22 December 2013 (GMT)

Uh-oh

Is it just me, or is the ribbon at the bottom of the page missing?--Thrapple (talk) 17:47, 23 December 2013 (GMT)

It didn't appear for me, but after purging the page it reappeared for me. Hopefully you should be able to see it now. •WoahBro^►talk 18:18, 23 December 2013 (GMT)

It did, thanks!--Thrapple (talk) 18:20, 23 December 2013 (GMT)

Accuracy

Currently the guidelines tells editors to "List everything that you see". The problem with this is, that items in the open in Skyrim are often from a leveled list, plain random or only enabled under certain conditions. A simplistic approach like this will leave much work to the checking phase. I currently see no CK checking project member, so inaccurate information will be on the page for a long time. There are several ways to arrive at a more accurate list of items, but they are time consuming and it would be good to curb some inaccuracy right at the beginning, instead of leaving it all to the checking phase. Methods I can think of:

• CK, as mentioned
• enter the house twice, with radically different PCs, that should catch most random stuff
• if on the PC, click on the item in the console, then look up the resulting ID on CSList
• I'm currently experimenting with a tool listing all items in a cell example. But the list is long and would need filtering. Anyway, the problem will be associating the items you see with an item on that list, but it at least alerts you that there are dummy items (those which will end up being from a leveled list).

Anyway, I think it would be good to give a warning at the guideline that things you see may be random, newer editors may not be aware of this. --Alfwyn (talk) 16:40, 16 March 2014 (GMT)

I actually did use CK for a couple of edits, to check contents of containers using the Edit Base function, and noting which items may randomly occur. Am I reading or notating it incorrectly?--Beezer1029 (talk) 12:18, 17 March 2014 (GMT)

My main concern with the current directives is, that it leads to well meaning editors to add inaccurate data. Anyway, the whole thing is tricky (hence the CP question, are we really prepared to do all this checking?). Taking Whitewatch Tower as an example. The dummy sword could not be easily found via the CK, since it is not in the WhitewatchTowerExterior01 cell, but in the encompassing persistent Skyrim cell. The Imperial sword not being enabled all the time is not easy to spot in the CK, it would need checking the enable parent tab. Documenting chest contents properly (chest1, chest2) is more difficult, ideally we would link to some page describing them, instead of trying to do it on every place page. --Alfwyn (talk) 13:09, 17 March 2014 (GMT)

Understood. Do you have any suggestions or recommendations for me then?--Beezer1029 (talk) 15:14, 17 March 2014 (GMT)

The gist is, that one probably really needs to check every item described on a page (well, food in the open is usually not random in my experience). Ideally a method to arrive at accurate results would be built in the project, and the checking phase really that, and not a need to rewrite large parts.

Anyway, personally I find getting the ID of an item via console and then looking that ID up (add 0x) in CSList the most useful method. But one has to get used to the notation used there first, and if you have to tab out of your game to do it, it may be getting quickly annoying. And of course it won't detect items that may be there under some conditions, but currently aren't. For that the CK is probably best, but there the mapping between the items seen in the CK and in-game isn't totally trivial. Then again, most houses aren't that complex, having usually only a few leveled items and not changing depending on some condition at all.

For chest contents, if it is a unique chest, a format like at Skyrim:Dragon#Loot may work best (but probably inline). With chests found at several places (like all those barrels), they should be documented elsewhere and linked too, if we want to go into details. Or maybe have fewer details (exact chance needed?) on them (but just describing some of the possible items seems wrong to me).--Alfwyn (talk) 16:29, 17 March 2014 (GMT)

(←) I didn't think listing contents of barrel, furniture or random chests, etc happened as the content is randomised? There are a few generally connected to a quest where certain item(s) will always be present. Biffa (talk) 23:07, 17 March 2014 (GMT)

Addvar's House

I wasn't sure where to post this. Addvar's House has been checked by yours truly and it looks like everything is correct. I will be checking the others soon. Tandil, Master of Restoration (talk) 20:02, 29 May 2014 (GMT)

You don't need to post anywhere that a page has been checked. Addvar's house has already been checked unless you mean the final review, in which case only a project leader can do that and we won't be doing that until most houses are in it. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 20:34, 29 May 2014 (GMT)

Exemplary House?

The standards are very thorough, but is there a current house page that one could visit to see the best examples of the features and qualities that are the goals of the project? Kalevala (talk) 21:00, 1 September 2014 (GMT)

There are a few examples here. --Krusty (talk) 22:00, 1 September 2014 (GMT)

Header uniformity?

Am noticing a wide variety of headers used in the Houses, even the SRHRP examples show multiple styles and use of italics. I was going to start checking some of these off, but the headers are just all over the place. Can we get a directive or formally decide on a header style? I'd go for just the basic:

==Header 1, no italics, for main space, i.e., The White Phial, Bob's House==
===Header 2, no italics, for any zones===

Just would like to remove some of those project tags!--Beezer1029 (talk) 13:55, 3 September 2014 (GMT)

That sounds like a good standard to me. I definitely agree with the "no italics" suggestion. Headers should be uniform across all pages, with no italics. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 18:41, 3 September 2014 (GMT)

Great. So do we need more consent? Or can I start standardizing the pages? I just don't want to cause a header war!--Beezer1029 (talk) 13:47, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

You might want to check in with Krusty or Silencer, just to be sure, since they're the project leaders. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 21:57, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

Hearthfire Houses Question

I tried to write Ragged Flagon - Cistern using Jorrvaskr as a model. Now I am wondering how to go about a player POV tour of the Hearthfire residences.

I am assuming that we want to visit (describe) the finished rooms.

It would seem that since all of three of these interiors are the same when finished it would simplify things if there were one description POV tour page for the Main Hall, one for the Basement, one for the Armory, one for the Kitchen, one for the Greenhouse, one for the Bedroom, one for the Trophy Room, one for the Alchemy Tower, etc.

If at one residence, say Windstad, you would offer links to the finished house interior page, or to the remodeled entry way page. These interior descriptions would be valid for the other two residences as well.

Next you would offer the Main Hall if its doors were present, but it too would be a common description used by all three houses.

Then as you are describing things within the Main Hall, you could say something like: If no west wing additions are made you will see blank walls, otherwise select the addition of interest: kitchen, etc and the description of that would continue on that page.

Does this seem reasonable? Kalevala (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2014 (GMT)

Summary Title/Headers

Hello everyone! I am thinking of joining up on this project. However, I am wondering as to the template for the titles of the summaries. Some pages show "Walkthrough" with the summary bellow while others list the name of the property itself with the summary underneath. What is the correct way? Also, what is the status of the pages being checked and marked as finished? Or in other words, the status of the progress of the project. Is it still being worked upon? Thanks. —Jake-518 (talk) 20:56, 15 March 2017 (PST)

This project preferred the name of the zone to be used as it treated each location page as a description of contents, not a walkthrough (which is a step-by-step guide of how to do something as defined by any dictionary that does, as opposed to its usage here as a 'walk through the area' which it has never meant). However, that preference seems to have been overridden by an ill-conceived and badly thought through 'vote' on the CP that was completely at odds with this project. The project is still here, as many pages still need written, which when done will remove the banner at the top so that it won't blight the page until someone feels able to mark them as complete. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 12:37, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Could I join?

I'm not really sure how to join, but I really want to help. Kai The Gr8 (talk) 5:53, 1 Febuary 2024 (EST)

Joining the project is as easy as contributing to the pages which still require work. You can find pages that still need cleanup or checking by clicking on the links in the Categories section of the article. Make sure you add your name to the SHRP template at the top of any articles you contribute to (an example of how to do this is here). You can also add your name to the project team simply by editing this article page. Feel free to jump in--we can always use the help! — Wolfborn^(Howl) 06:54, 2 February 2024 (UTC)