Skyrim talk:Blood on the Ice/Archive 5

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Blood on the Ice discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Key stolen but no quest

I stole the key to hjerim as the quest would not trigger. I have competed the battle or skyrim as a stormcloak. When I entered the house I got the beware note and 2 journals. Suzanna is still alive. Is it possible now for the quest to trigger or am I just screwed? — Unsigned comment by 75.9.38.26 (talk) at 02:37 on 4 March 2012

I'm having the same problem. I'm assuming there's no way to fix it... ugh. 173.252.40.80 18:11, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Repeat visits not necessary?

Despite both this UESP website and the Official Strategy Guide stating that you must Fast Travel to/from Windhelm on four seperate occassions in order to fully trigger this quest, this does not seem to be the case. I first attempted 'Blood on the Ice' with a level 37 character and 104 in-game days. Although I had explored the area surrounding Windhelm quite extensively, I had never entered the city itself. The first time I ever entered Windhelm and approached the graveyard, at 10:30 p.m., all of the relevent NPCs were present in the graveyard, the guard approached me, triggering the quest and I was able to proceed normally without encountering any of the seemingly prevalent glitches, bugs or issues. A friend then informed me that the quest can trigger even if the player is just in the general area of Windhelm, so I started a brand new game. I played through the Helgen introduction, walked from the Helgen cave exit to Riverwood and from there to the Whiterun stables - without talking to any unnecessary NPCs or advancing any quests - where I used the carriage to journey straight to the Windhelm stables. I entered the city on the second in-game day at 2:00 p.m. and headed straight for the graveyard: once again, all relevent NPCs were present and I was again able to trigger the quest and proceed on a perfectly normal playthrough. This was tested on a PS3 release-version of Skyrim with no patches or updates installed.

Just to clarify: in my original playthrough I had not touched the Imperial/Stormcloak Civil War questline, had just completed the 'Diplomatic Immunity' segment of the Main Quest, and the 'Purity of Revenge' segment of the Companions questline, in addition to several dozen Miscellaneous Objectives and multiple Side Quests - though none involving Windhelm itself or any of the inhabitants - as well as most of the Daedric quests. On both playthroughs I spoke to no-one else in Windhelm and concentrated solely on 'Blood on the Ice' itself. The above-mentioned friend, who had all sorts of issues trying to trigger the quest, and who had adhered to the Fast Travel rule, also started a new game, this time following my lead, and was able to sucessfully trigger the quest and have a problem/bug-free playthrough. Sorry for rambling on, but there seem to be so many issues with this particular quest, and after watching my friend almost tear his hair out in frustration, I thought that any possible help or information may be valuable. Feel free to edit/delete/ignore as much of this as you care to. I also have a save file from my second playthrough, at the Whiterun stables immediately before activating the carriage to Windhelm. If there is anything anyone would like me to try and check out, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to help. — Unsigned comment by Shadowyn77 (talk • contribs) on 9 March 2012

Thank you for your input. It seems that there are enough problems with this quest (in my first character's case I had multiple NPCs dead) that sometimes it is not just one issue, or is an issue not even realized. My second character triggered it (pre 1.4 patch) on the fourth Windhelm area entrance, and my third character has triggered the quest on the first Windhelm area entrance (after 1.4 patch). For PC players that may mean the four times count is not required due to the 1.4 patch. I do not play on X-box, but I am curious if X-box users have patch control as PC users don't seem to: in my own opinion only, to completely validate your information patch control needs to be verified and I certainly do not know such things. --Anubis Priest 21:58, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I did some tests recently (PS3 with 1.4 patch) and the visit count is definitely there. The quest can easily be triggered by just fast traveling back and forth between another major city, like Whiterun, and directly to Windhelm. The entrance door has nothing to do with it. Tricky part is, you HAVE to arrive between 7pm and 3am, but it will always trigger the quest. Problem with the count is that the counter activates if you even touch the Windhelm Hold, and if you do that four times, thre quest will trigger the next time you enter Windhelm, providing you arrive at the mentioned times. --Krusty 22:42, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Better late than never, but my post above was a bit unclear. For the counter to work, you can fast-travel to Windhelm at any time of the day - but you HAVE to arrive between 7pm and 3am the 4th time. --Krusty 08:30, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting that PC 1.5 the quest happened on the 2nd trip to Windhelm. I'd visited the 1st time by carriage from Winterhold, and started the Arentino Innocence Lost quest. Level 8. Did nothing else in city (did give coin to Silda on general principle, but only traversed city to Arentino house and back out). Had no travel anywhere near Windhelm. Carriage to Riften, joined Thieves (A Chance Arrangement and Taking Care of Business), started The Book of Love. Horse to Ivarstaad, fast travel to Riften, carriage to Winterhold (completed Under Saarthal). Needing to liquidate the Saarthal loot, fast traveled to Windhelm from the very center of the College. Arrived 7:30'ish. Walking up the left of Candlehearth (actually looking for the Pickpocket training) found Silda in the graveyard and this quest started. Level 13. Does this mean "fast travel" includes carriage rides between other cities? Set of save files for those interested.
--DayDreamer 16:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Can't Start Quest. Confused

I've been wanting to own all the houses in Skyrim and by the time I've come across obtaining Hjeirm in Windhelm but can't seem the get the quest to start. I've completed the Companions, Mage's College and Thieves Guild quests and The Main quest, the dragon priest masks and became thane everywhere except Windhelm.I,ve haven't even gone near the Civil War quests cause I've read how much they've affect other quests. I've pickpocketed the key off of Tova Shatter-Shield and went into Hjeirm and took the journals, amulet and flyer and still nothing happens. I've checked if all the necessary NPCs are there and they check out but i can never tell if the guard that activates the quest is dead or not. And the console commands aren't working either. Any help would be appreciated. — Unsigned comment by Spikeboarder360 (talk • contribs) at 03:28 on 26 March 2012

I have completed the theives guild, dark brotherhood, civil war, main, and past the 250 day limit is there any way i can get hjerm, the house in windhelm? — Unsigned comment by 66.72.233.192 (talk) at 21:06 on 26 March 2012

Force starting BOTI quest

So i got frustrated that even after ditching my level 61 save(hence starting a new game) i couldn't get the BOTI quest to initiate normally..

Hopefully after a few minutes of teeth grinding i figured it out.Hopefully, it should come to use for anyone who like me couldn't get the quest to initiate..

So what i did was the following using the console after fast travelling to windhelm:-

1.) Open console by pressing ~ key then typing "setstage ms11 1" without the quotes

2.) in console type "set ms11EnteringWindhelmCount = 3" in the console without quotes

3.) To verify, type "getstage ms11" without quotes in the console.It should return the value 1.

Wait outside the gates till 8-9 pm then enter windhelm.The quest should now begin normally.

But the thing is, i've lost all my saves so , can anyone confirm that this can be done with a mid-level character? — Unsigned comment by 117.194.32.120 (talk) on 31 March 2012

i've tried it with a L59 Nord who missed this quest and it didnt work Jr2nd 05:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Timing may be broken under patch 1.5

I just did this quest completely under patch 1.5 and hit a new bug. After talking to Wuunferth and being advised the Butcher would strike the next night, the butcher actually struck as soon as I got to the Stone Quarter to do some shopping. It was 2:10 pm in the afternoon game-time, not night. The Butcher murdered Arivanya with everyone there and took off pursed by me and 1 guard. No other problems with it though, it worked smoothly. I'm speculating the AM/PM in the scripting got thrown off.--68.74.28.21 05:44, 6 April 2012 (UTC) (Alessar)

Actually, that issue has occurred since the game originally came out. I'm still playing an un-patched version of the game, and that's been the case for me every single time I've done this quest on different characters. So, unless it was fixed and then un-fixed, I don't think it's a 'new' issue related to the 1.5 patch. ABCface^◥ 05:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

so where did people get the "2am" anyways, maybe it's not a bug at all and meant this way.50.99.131.84 06:08, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

If I remember right, it's what your quest journal tells you. It's been a while since the last time I did the quest, though. ABCface^◥ 06:12, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

The Quest Journal sayeth only "Patrol the streets of the Stone Quarter at night" (no full stop). But the article advice to wait until the place is empty is good. There is usually 1 guard, although in my case another is walking toward it and they both take up arms at the scream. I've fixed the text.
--DayDreamer 20:02, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Correction. I've re-run it merely watching him kill the woman, and this time the guards do not care. Apparently, they only unsheath their weapons after I raise mine! This time, one talked to me about where to sell my excess gear. Those are some indolent guards....
• Also, the scream doesn't happen until you enter the Quarter far enough to see the victim. I've stood there just outside for some time.
• So, that part of the article wording needs to be fixed.
  --DayDreamer 20:21, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Woman who Jorleif hates

Her name is Viola i think.

I'm not sure what happend but she isnt dead, but I cant find her. I need her to advance into the rest of the quest. — Unsigned comment by 23.16.4.84 (talk) on 9 April 2012

Her name is Viola, and you will get a quest marker pointing towards her after speaking with Jorleif. With patch 1.4, I experienced a tiny bug where she would be locked up inside her house, and you had to pick the lock to get her out of there. You could try that, map marker or not. Just tested the same tiny bug with 1.5, and it seems to be fixed. --Krusty 11:26, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Cant start please help

hey i have skyrim on ps3, and i cant start the mission! i did the civil war quests as the empire (second time around) and i wanted to buy hjerim cause its such a good house but i cant start the quest! i have the new 1.5 update and i think ive been to windhelm atleast like 10 times and i cant getit done. calixto is there viola is there all the people he kills are alive still and i just cant figure out what the problem is! all the people in all the lists above are still alive in my game. ive even like broke in and taken a beware the butcher poster thing and it still didnt activate — Unsigned comment by 69.180.150.229 (talk) on 10 April 2012

That's because a Stormcloak guard gives you the quest. Once you finish it with the Empire, the guard is no longer in existance. Vyc Ðarkshådøw 03:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

A different verision of blood on ice bug?

Well, I'm having this issue for 5 months now and basically, it made me stop playing. I too was going for all the hoses and after reading a bit I concluded that the Windhelm house would best fit to my needs utility wise. At thistime I was lvl 50-52, had completed: dragonborn main quest, civilwar and went on imperial side, all words of power, had all houses available besides the one in WH, finished thieves guild and nightingale and started assassin's guild quest chain but stopped before killing Nilsine or who the assassin optional contract target was due to a friend telling me that he did murder her and thus had read that you couldn't get tge house if doing so (witch by itself seemed to suck to me :p ...little did i know).

Also, before getting into detailed descriptions, I must say that Ive had this issue thru more versions of the game (i play on pc),updated from 1.something to 1.5+ that is curently out. I have been in and out WH many times before attempting to trigger this quest, very late in the game as previously stated. The thing for me is thatI have the amulet, I pickpocketed the key, I broke into the house from pure curiosity and that led me to the internet ..:p as no quest triggered even on trying "investigate" inside. The new yarl made me thane but I cannot buy the house due to the standard "there have been some things happenin around that house and it's curently unavailable" text. All NPCs listed are up, even tho i cannot confirm the guard mentioned in the threads here. I have traveled my ass off in and out, spoke to everyone and everything, stalked ppl worse than the damn butcher himself. I thought maybe dropping the pending assassination quest might unblock whatever is blocked but I dunno how to do that, too bad there isnt such an option in the ui and be able to pick it up again later from the specific npc...

What I observed: sussana or what's her name ( npc that is supposed to die as 1st victim) doesnt leave candlehearth. (stalked her inside too, tried to attack her, thing that triggers another npc jumping in and bashing...her even more as she cannot die...immguessing thats good tho given my specific bug). She wont leave the inn damn it!:)

Another thing, I have seen Calixo stalk near the inn some times, but she just wouldnt go out. I repeat, I cannot start the quest, tried everything except console commands. What do you guise think? How can i make her leave the inn? This last house to buy so i can continue the assassin's guild chain but cant cuz im stuck thing simply made me quit and wait for a fix...a fix that never came :(. And no, id like to do it on my "main" char that ive cared for and loved from since he was a lvl 1 nobody :p

Cheers, ty for the read and possible replies and gl.— Unsigned comment by Uzu (talk • contribs) at 23:35 on 17 April 2012

You have two things that affect the quest. The Imperial side of the civil war if completed removes the guard that should be at the graveyard, this was fixed by update 1.5. A very large amount of hours in one game also seems to break the quest, no fix. The update does not always fix games already started, it should work for a new game but that might be undesirable. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 23:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Moved from article

• Calixto did eventually come out of his house at 5-5:15pm and i was able to speak with him and sell the amulet without a confrontation — Unsigned comment by 99.49.132.253 (talk) on 18 April 2012

This can be solved by speaking with Wuunferth in the prision, the quest will show up again even if no guard speaks to you (PS3)

Besides the spelling, punctuation, and grammar errors -- how would we test this? It's already fixed as of 1.4, and we're at 1.5 now.
--DayDreamer 01:38, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Quest Notes

Krusty and I are both looking into various aspects of this quest since it seems to have so many issues. This section is intended for working notes/questions. While we'd gotten started by e-mail, and there's a post on my talk page about it, I'm moving this conversation to a public posting on the quest page itself so that others can confirm or refute our findings, ask questions we may not have considered, etc. Please note that this section may repeat information already covered elsewhere—the difference here is that we'll be asserting it as fact rather than guesses, based on both Creation Kit and in-game confirmation. Please let us know if our "facts" don't match your in-game experience, though!

So first up, we have the question of how to trigger the quest. So far, my findings indicate that this is strictly based on the number of times you've entered Windhelm. Specifically, you need to have entered Windhelm four times in total. The definition of "enter" is pretty loose, however: any time you transition between the area immediately around Windhelm and any area outside of it is good enough—you don't actually have to "enter" the city itself at all until you're ready to go to the graveyard. For example, I was able to satisfy the quest conditions in under a minute by going to the entrance of Brandy-Mug Farm, then walking a few seconds towards Windhelm, walk back, walk forwards, walk back...etc.

In order to trigger the quest, though, it must be between 7pm and 6:59am on the fourth or later entrance (the timing of the first three doesn't matter). If you're already inside the city at 7pm, you won't trigger it. Similarly, you can enter the city a hundred times during the day and you won't trigger it. Going into a building and back out won't trigger it either. The only way is to come from outside the city after 7pm.

Contrary to what the page currently states, my observation and the CK analysis indicate that fast travelling is irrelevant to triggering the quest. – Robin Hood↝talk 09:18, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely agreed - now is the time to find out how to trigger this quest and make a special section on the article, simply to explain each and every possible variation and what NOT to do, like killing NPCs, ignoring the graveyard scene due to some other quest, and the like. It seems like you’ve already discovered the easiest way to trigger it when entering the hold for the first time, though:

I just tested your Brandy-Mug Farm method and it works like a charm – probably the fastest method we can come up with. Here’s exactly what I did, with a save-game fresh out of Helgen:

• Walked from Riverwood to Whiterun, hired the carriage to Windhelm. It will land you next to Windhelm Stables.
• Went down the hill to Brandy-Mug Farm.
• From the farm front door I walked back and forth two times, just touching the back wall of the Windhelm Stables building.
• Entered Windhelm at 8pm and the quest and graveyard scene was triggered.

A brilliant technique for first-time visitors, indeed – and much better and quicker than all the fast-traveling techniques I’ve tested in the past. I’d even say it’s the best method we can come up with as it took me two minutes to trigger. Now, since you don’t even have to enter Windhelm, we should figure out the area that activates the counter. Maybe we can even draw a map or something, because people will automatically visit certain places for certain quests – so the area would be great to determine. --Krusty 13:09, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Good idea, Krusty. It's easy enough (sorta) to tell in the CK what the area is...I'm just not sure how best to map that out. I'm thinking the easiest way might well be to just do a screen grab of that area from our map, then draw borders on it in Photoshop. Oh and if you only walked back and forth twice, your path probably went in-out-in-out each time, cuz it's definitely supposed to take four. But that just goes to show how easy it is to go in and out of the area without even realizing it. Like you, when triggering the quest "organically" rather than doing deliberate testing, I also did it in much fewer than four full trips. – Robin Hood↝talk 19:13, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Some kind of map would be great - with a bit of in-game testing, of course. The choice of map is an interesting one, though. If we use our own map, then people will have to compare all the time. If we use the in-game map, we will have to consider the different angles. I'm tempted to go back to one of the very static maps to provide an easier overview - but that all depends on how complex that MS11EnteringWindhelmCount is. :) Oh, and I'm rather confident that my first visit (by carriage) counted for 1, then back and fourth from the farm to the stables two times, and finally entering Windhelm the fourth time. So, it should add up to four "visits" all in all. --Krusty 20:02, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, the first visit by carriage definitely counts, I wasn't thinking about that. Your math is correct. :) The maps should be based on individual cells, so they'll probably follow square blocks on our map. I'll see if I can put together what I'm thinking of later today, and even if we decide to use some other method, it'll give us a point of reference. – Robin Hood↝talk 20:51, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I have spent all evening building up the appropriate saves for a test of the infamous Mourning Never Comes-bug – as you know, you can kill Nilsine Shatter-Shield as part of Muiri’s evil scheme, which will cause BOTI-related Tova Shatter-Shield to commit suicide out of grief. I did it this way (still with my straight-out-of-Helgen-save):

• Traveled to Windhelm, talked to Arentino boy. (Count 1)
• Traveled to Windhelm, got my reward for killing Grelod. (Count 2)
• Started Mourning Never Comes and killed Nilsine. (Count 3)
• On all three visits, I checked the graveyard and there was no scene, as expected.

Now, here comes the odd part: If I choose NOT to finish the DB quest by talking to Muiri and Astrid, and instead travel to Windhelm, the graveyard scene will trigger as normal. IF, however, you finish Mourning Never Comes, you can’t trigger BOTI anymore. A visit to the House of Clan Shatter-Shield reveals that Tova indeed committed suicide upon completion of Mourning Never Comes, but it also suggests that “something” affects the counter, now that one of the participants is dead? What is that? Fact is, the count no longer holds true now that Tova died.

A few additional tests later, still with Mourning Never Comes completed, I found out that the nice Brandy-Mug Farm method doesn’t work either. I’ve checked for Silda, Calixto and Helgird (the first witnesses) and they are all alive – and so is Viola. Seems broken now, so this is definitely the next thing to figure out – hopefully, you can test it in-game as well, hopefully using the console to limit a time-consuming test. But this could be one of the quest-breaking things people have been referring to for the longest time. What bothers me is that other people claim that Tova’s dead body will disappear, so that suggests that people managed to trigger it anyway. Right now, I don’t really know what to test – but if the CK can reveal SOMETHING, I’m willing to test all of this in-depth tomorrow. --Krusty 22:49, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Just an update on the Tova bug, which I’m tempted to call quest-breaking – I had an idea and followed it – what if I could make Tova’s dead body disappear? I have now waited 10 in-game days (maybe even more) and it is not going anywhere and the quest just can’t be triggered, regardless of what I try. Additionally, picking the Hjerim key from Tova’s body and entering Hjerim will only reveal a very bugged interior (the items can not be investigated properly and is reffered to as “InvestigationTarget”) and no quest. We still need some kind of explanation, but I’m definitely running out of possible fixes. --Krusty 13:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

(←) Okay, first, an update an the possibility of a map: I thought there was a realtively easy way to do this in the CK, but it turns out that there isn't. The "View Current Cell Only" function doesn't do anything, making it hard to tell visually where one cell begins and the other ends. Determined not to give up, I thought I'd try deleting a bunch of cells, but that also failed, as it wouldn't allow me to delete any cell I tried. About the only way I can think of to get a concrete map of what counts as Windhelm and what doesn't is to list all the cells that do belong, then generate a map of each one and stitch it together, just like Dave did for the entire map. I'm certainly not up to that, either by programming or by hand. You can check with Dave or Neph if they have the ability to do something like that more easily than I do, or if they have a better idea entirely, but I think a map is just a no-go at this point. I'm off for lunch, but I'll check into your other observations afterwards. – Robin Hood↝talk 20:42, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

On to the issue that the quest won't start if Tova is dead. The short answer is: you're absolutely right. Tova is marked as being essential to the quest, so it won't start if she's dead. In that case, the count works fine and tries to start the quest, but then as the quest initializes, it discovers that Tova's dead and quits before anything useful has occurred. Other required actors appear to be: Calixto, Helgird, Jorleif, Wuunferth, the first two victims (Arivanya and Susanna), any living female in Windhelm other than Arivanya and Susanna, and any Windhelm Guard. For those last two, conceivably you could break the quest if you killed every non-essential female or every guard in all of Windhelm before your fourth visit, though that's obviously rather unlikely for anybody not named Glarthir. Technically speaking, the others like Silda and Viola are optional, but since they're marked as essential from the time you start the game until you start this quest, it'll never happen that they'll be dead anyway. Most of the required actors are also flagged as essential, with Tova and Arivanya being the notable exceptions, so either of them being dead could break the quest.

That brings me to your follow-up question. Can you confirm that Tova and Arivanya are still alive? And just to be on the safe side, verify all the others I mentioned in case they're not as essential as they appear to be in the CK. If they're all alive, then I'll have more investigation to do, but let's look for the easy answers first. I'm not sure how Tova could be dead and the quest still gets started unless the quest actually started prior to killing Tova, but the player just didn't witness the scene in the graveyard until after killing Tova. I think that would work, but I'm not 100% sure—I haven't looked into the scripting around the graveyard scene, so I don't know if they'll happily all mourn until you notice them doing so or what. – Robin Hood↝talk 23:10, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Good! A gigantic warning sign will soon pop up on the Mourning Never Comes page. The second question was actually based on some older posts on this talk - and on one of the current notes stating: "If Tova is dead, the quest marker will point to where she would be if she was still alive rather than where her corpse is." - I have yet to trigger the quest, then finish Mourning Never Comes. Arivanya is interesting however - as you know, she is the second fixed victim if you take the "put Wuunferth to jail" path - I tried killing her before doing that. And her body still showed up a few days later - so I figured it to be one of the good old "can effectively die twice" notes. However, I'll take a look at what happens if Arivanya is dead - and on hat happens if you initiate the quest before reporting back to Muiri for your reward. Tomorrow. If we can figure these things out, we may be able to skip most of our planned "how to trigger"-section - because it should probably be changed to "Who needs to be alive". --Krusty 23:36, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I can confirm that Arivanya needs to be alive to trigger the quest. That’s another important note to add, especially since she lives outside the walls – and theoretically could be killed by dragons and the like. For good measure, I tested her behavior during Battle for Windhelm, and she is safely locked inside Windhelm Stables, so that’s not going to kill her.

Normally, this would be the place where I posted my test for the essential status of the remaining cast members, but something really odd happened during the test – after attacking Calixto and Helgird, the game informed me “last witness killed”. That sounds REALLY suspicious, especially since they’re not even dead. I can confirm that the message affects the quest - and prevents it from initiating, and I remember getting the same message back when I tested the potential market victims (Arivanya and Luaffyn). This could be another quest-breaking factor – if the game counts them as dead, even if they’re essential, then basically you can’t attack a single person in Windhelm? Or am I just guessing? --Krusty 14:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

So after trying to track this behaviour down for a while, I went in-game and tried it. When I killed Calixto in his home, I realized that this is the standard behaviour for if you kill the last witness to a crime, and it has nothing to do with the quest at all. (And apparently, "killing" gets a somewhat loose definition for an essential actor.) As near as I can tell, nothing changes in regards to the quest as a result of trying to kill either Calixto or Helgird. I was able to go back, get my count of four entries, and start the quest as normal in both cases. That leaves the question, though: what did prevent you from initiating the quest? I'm out of theories on that one. – Robin Hood↝talk 00:09, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll have to run a few more tests (even though I couldn't get it to trigger after attacking Calixto and Helgird to the point where they sit on their knees and the message appears), but the "last witness killed" is probably for another page then. Update will come tomorrow. --Krusty 00:52, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

UPDATE: Dammit, you’re absolutely correct. I must have counted wrong or something. Anyways, back to the killing spree of the cast members. After that we should be able to start adding a few notes to the article. :) --Krusty 08:30, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The essential status of the following “cast members” has been tested: Viola Giordano, Calixto, Helfgird, Silda the Unseen, Jorleif, Wuunferth. All are essential prior to the quest. Lastly, Tova Shatter-Shield is essential as well – although she suffers from a scripted death upon completion of Mourning Never Comes. So, I hope that this part of the investigation has come to an end; what we need to figure out is how to write an easy-to-understand method of triggering the quest, scare people away from completing Mourning Never Comes and keep an eye out for Arivanya. So far so good! Time for a new header, but please let me know if I forgot some testing along the way. ☺ --Krusty 13:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Questions about patch 1.5 and what exactly it does for this quest

2 questions here, I think they're maybe related (or maybe not, I dunno):

1. I had the problem pre-patch 1.5 where Viola was killed before I received this quest, and therefore I wasn't able to talk to her to advance the quest. I have since downloaded patch 1.5, which says it will fix that particular bug. Does that mean it fixes it only if you haven't yet started the quest, or should I be able to finish the quest now that I've got the patch?

2. After getting patch 1.5, I came to Windhelm and activated this quest. The quest stage I'm on says "Follow up on the clues from Hjerim" which is the stage it's been at since I realized it was bugged several months ago. I have previously talked to Calixo about the amulet and done the things I'm supposed to do with him up to this point. The marker pointed me to Jorleif only. I went to talk to him. His dialogue options were to ask about work (which I did and was asked to kill a giant or some such), ask what he does for the Jarl, ask what he knows about Windhelm, and ask to buy Hjerim (which is an option I've never had before). I bought Hjerim, and when I go inside all the pamphlets and gory hidden room still exist. The quest marker still points at Jorleif. Is this a separate bug from the one involving a dead Viola, or is this how it's supposed to be post-patch? If the latter, what do I do next to complete the quest (assuming I even can)?

Thanks for any help. Obax 21:06, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to mention I've completed the civil war questline, siding with the Stormcloaks. Obax 15:01, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Just an update on things I've done. Some of this may be pertinent, some may not. Since I posted my original questions, I reloaded an old save in which I owned Hjerim but had not yet visited it. When I posted my original questions, Hjerim did not contain a housecarl when I visited it. I have visited Hjerim again (thus completing the misc. quest to do so after buying it) and it did contain a housecarl. I visited Jorleif to see if I could buy any furniture and such for Hjerim, and he does not have that dialogue option, only to ask what he does for the jarl and to tell me about Windhelm. The quest stage for Blood on the Ice is to 'follow up on the clues from Hjerim' and the marker points at Jorleif only. He will randomly mention when I approach him that it's a shame what happened to those women, but there are no dialogue options to ask about quest-related stuff. Any thoughts? Obax 22:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like you hit the bug described at the very top here. That means that the quest is still active, but your map markers are gone. Try talking to Viola or Calixto and see if they have the quest-related topics. If yes, follow the article's detailed walkthrough and you should be fine. Good luck. --Krusty 22:55, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm past the point of the bug in your link. I had no trouble starting or advancing the quest, up til the point where you had to talk to Calixo about the amulet and Viola about the pamphlets. I've talked to Calixo and done everything I can with/for him to this point, and Viola is nowhere to be found. Pre-patch, I had the problem where she's disappeared (I'm assuming dead) and I therefore couldn't advance the quest. The main article implies that patch 1.5 was supposed to fix this, but I've installed the patch and am still stuck at the point stated above (pre-patch, the quest marker pointing to Viola was placed in the middle of the inn that's right in front of the Palace on my map, I'm assuming this was actually pointing to her coffin in the Hall of the Dead, but I've never actually gone looking for her coffin. Now, post-patch, the only quest marker points to Jorleif, who won't talk to me about it). My original questions (above) still stand. I have a feeling this quest is just bugged beyond repair and that I'm SOL. Obax 19:11, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Oftentimes, the patch updates only fix bugs for new games-- that is, if you're trying to play on a save file which was bugged before the patch, the patch fix may not apply. You may have to start an entirely new save file in order for the patch updates to actually work for the issues they're fixing. It really sucks in certain instances (if you've put in dozens of hours of gameplay and don't want to start over...) but it's a common issue... ABCface^◥ 20:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that's the answer I was looking for. I had a feeling that was the case, and I have successfully completed the quest, pre-patch, with another character, so at least I know how it all goes. Obax 18:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I don't exactly know how to write it here, but i solved the problem by simply typing into the console player.placeatme 00014129 1. That spawned a Viola that i could talk to and continue on with the quest. — Unsigned comment by 46.131.129.134 (talk) on 21 June 2012

Quest Notes PART 2

I have read through all archived discussions - and the current notes and bugs as well - and these, rather simple tests, needs to be done for us to make a complete bugs section. Please, participate if you have any experiences in the game (and feel free to post alternative problems, but please make sure they are not already included on the article) - and note, that the "how to trigger" investigation can be found above.

• Will a bounty in Eastmarch prevent you from triggering the quest?

Answer:

• What if you ignore the graveyard scene for too long? Will the blood spatters disappear? What about the three witnesses?

Answer:

Prior to 1.3: If you ignore the scene, then when the cell resets all evidence that there was a murder there, including any relevant dialogue, will be gone, thus locking you out of the quest forever. • JA^Talk 14:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

How long will it take for the cell to reset? --Krusty 21:27, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

• Will the Viola Giordano-quest That Was Always There affect this quest in any way?

Answer: No - I tried every combination I could think of and BOTI proceeded as normal. --Krusty 08:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

• What if you complete the CW for the Legion?

Answer: If you haven’t triggered the quest when you begin Battle for Windhelm, there will be no problems as an Imperial Guard will replace the Stormcloak. However, if you trigger Blood on the Ice, then complete Battle for Windhelm, Susanna’s dead body will remain on the tombstone during the entire attack. When Windhelm has been rebuild, the three witnesses will return to the graveyard, but the (new Imperial) guard will fail to appear. No known fixes. --Krusty 07:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• What if you complete the CW for the Legion #2 – what if you trigger the quest and advance it until the guard is no longer needed, then complete Battle for Windhelm?

Answer:

• Who are the potential victims for the second ‘scripted’ kill? Susanna will always be the first – but what if Arivanya is dead – who will be in line as the second victim if you put Wuunferth in jail? (Tested this with patch 1.3 and it turned out, Arivanya could die ‘twice’ due to scripted death, but it needs tests with 1.5 and a better explanation on the page)

Answer: Arivanya will always be the second victim. Still needs tested whether she can die twice or not in 1.5, but it looks like it might still be possible.

I actually tested it this morning with 1.5; killed Arivanya during the quest, turned Wuunferth in and waited a few days. Her body disappeared as planned, but she turned up as the second victim anyway, although with one minor (but not noteworthy) difference; she was in her underwear. I attempted to add the info to the page, but forgot to add it here. Sorry. --Krusty 19:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

• Who are the potential victims in the market? How will the game determine them? And will the quest still bug if the game run out of “potential victims” (in the game referred to as “potential witnesses”). See the VN tag in the article’s bug section.

Answer: The third victim can be any female in Windhelm who isn't dead and isn't essential. Best guess is that if all the women are dead before starting the quest, the quest will simply fail to start; if the woman selected as the third victim is killed during the quest, she may also die twice like Arivanya. This too needs in-game confirmation.

• Why and when will the lock to Hjerim change from a “Key required” to a “leveled lock”? What is the determining factor?

Answer: As soon as this quest is triggered. Also, it looks like it will always be a master level lock, not leveled.

• If you manage to ignore the triggered cemetery sequence and complete Moruning Never Comes, what happens with Tova's part of the quest?

Answer: Just checked this. Initiated the quest, then completed Mourning Never Comes. Despite a rather confused quest marker inside Clan Shatter-Shield’s House, you can easily just take the Hjerim key from Tova’s body. I also tried waiting 10 in-game days, and the body doesn’t disappear – could be that it was fixed by one of the patches. All in all, I’m pretty sure the DB quest is covered now. --Krusty 21:27, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

--Krusty 07:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Still can't start & Calixto won't leave his house?

Didn't bother patching for the longest time and then went straight to 1.5.26.0 in an attempt to finish this.

All NPCs are alive & well, even the lesser-known ones from the previous list. Never used any "cheats" or console commands prior to this, it's a "clean" save. All main quests completed & many side-quests. Went with Imperials & didn't do optional kill on Dark Brotherhood (as mentioned before about NPCs).

Tried the various solutions of commands with start/stop of ms11pressentializing, setstage combinations & changing times entered to 3 and then entering entering after 7pm (confirmed it went up to 4). Times entered before any commands is 62 and stage is 0.00.

Also tried pickpocket the key & digging through the stuff, quest never starts (with or without other commands).

Something weird... Calixto is invincible without starting the quest as mentioned in the previous explanation linked on Krusty's investigation... yet when I hit him down to 0 health, it says that all witnesses are killed (even though he is just "down") When he gets back up, he is no longer attacking. He also doesn't want to leave his house at all, I waited several days checking at various times and he stays there with it locked.

To compensate for this, I tried resurrecting him (perhaps the game thought he was dead?), disable/enable & move out of his houses. That seemed to "fix" him and he would come out and also die properly, but the quest still won't start even in combination with other solutions.

Don't know what else to do from here, any suggestions? 24.68.138.191 06:40, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

You say this was a clean save, but was the save from before the patches? If so, it might not be fixed--usually patches work best on new saves and won't always work on old saves. Can you try the same thing from a new save and see what happens? Vely^{►Talk►Email} 22:17, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

What I mean by "clean save" is that there were no console mess-ups... the bugs were entirely caused by the game itself. Of course starting a new save would fix it, I think you misunderstand the point of this post (and most of the discussion here). Many of us are trying to figure out how to recover from these bugs, not start 100+ hour saves over again just for one quest. I didn't see this particular issue posted yet & the previous known recovery steps are not working for it. 24.68.138.191 06:40, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

A Different scenario that I can't relate with many

Ok well for starters, I own an xbox 360. I'm a level 56 and have done pretty much all of the main quests and especially guild quests EXCEPT for the civil war quest (I haven't even joined a side yet). I tried every possible way I can think of to initiate this quest... the graveyard scene never came unless it was very, very early in my gameplay, but even I did there is no quest in my active quests. I did some creeping around the city and found that Susanna isn't dead yet, but the mother of the two daughters is still in her house (dead) laying by her husband who is alive lol. I have no idea what to do; can someone please help or give me some suggestions? Thanks! — Unsigned comment by 70.177.85.18 (talk) at 09:33 on 25 May 2012

For starters, Tova needs to be alive to initiate the quest - second, it is possible to "overlook" the graveyard sequence for a specific amount of time, and then it simply resets. See this section (and the notes and bugs sections underneath) for more info. --Krusty 13:01, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Possible Solution [Post 1.5, 1.6 Beta (PC only)]

I have struggled many hours getting this quest to work, and it finally triggered for me today.

Going into the troubleshooting, I had done the following:

- Completed DB questline, killing Nilsine.

- Finished Stormcloak questline.

- Ingame hours > 245.

The quest would not trigger no matter what. I had done the following:

- Taken key from Tova's body.

- Acquired all evidence from Hjerim, including amulet, journals and pamphlets.

- Set enteringwindhelmcount to 3/4.

- Tried forcing the quest to start with all manner of preessentializing, startquest, resetquest,setstage etc. [THE CONSOLE COMMANDS DID NOTHING FOR THIS QUEST AT THIS POINT]

- Resurrected all necessary NPCs.

Doing all these things in various orders yielded no results. Frustration upon frustration.

Finally, I figured I had messed with the quest parameters far too much for the quest to start. This led me to try the following:

1) RETURN ALL HJERIM EVIDENCE TO WHERE IT WAS PICKED UP, OR AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE (FIRST JOURNAL IN CHEST, ETC). THIS INCLUDES AMULET, JOURNALS, ETC. (I SPREAD PAMPHLETS AROUND IN AN APPROXIMATE FASHION, SOME IN CHEST, SOME BY STAND.)

2) USE REMOVEITEM COMMAND TO GET RID OF ANY/ALL KEYS TO HJERIM THAT YOU MAY HAVE PICKED UP. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE NONE IN YOUR INVENTORY.

3) CALIXTO WOULD NOT LEAVE HIS HOUSE IN MY GAME. IN ORDER TO GET THE SCENARIO AS CLOSE TO PERFECT AS POSSIBLE, I KILL/DISABLE/ENABLE/RESURRECTED CALIXTO. THIS MADE HIM GO ABOUT HIS DAILY ROUTINES. IF HE IS DOING THE SAME IN YOUR GAME, THIS MAY BE KEY!

So now I have returned the game world back to as normal as possible. Nilsine and Tova are still dead. I have no evidence, no key to Hjerim, and Calixto has left his mancave.

I then left Windhelm's main entrance and reapplied all the advice given on these forums. Resurrected necessary NPCs, Stop/start preessentializing, setting enteringwindhelmcount to 4, waited until night and entered Windhelm, breathe held.

I walked over to the alley, and looked in.

Nothing.

I resetquest.

I startquest.

And it triggered. I kid you not. After 20-30 attempts and restarts, after mucking up the game as much as possible, it finally triggered! After attempting the "workaround" and everything, after entering each and every command in every conceivable order, it finally worked! Resetting as many quest parameters as possible and reapplying the steps worked!

I happily re-killed Nilsine and Tova, and went about finishing the quest. I am now the proud owner of a fully furnished and bug-free Hjerim! — Unsigned comment by 142.177.155.101 (talk) at 21:56 on 25 May 2012

Calixto / Viola?

Taken from Bugs section:

Calixto will follow Viola around day and night but never attack or kill her no matter what. Once this happens Calixto cannot be killed since he is a needed character. To solve this, kill Viola and then quickly turn and kill Calixto.

I have a hard time with this, although it COULD happen if Viola was in line as the market victim. However, we need the determining facktor before this belongs on the article. --Krusty 16:52, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

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