Oblivion talk:Classes

Faster Levelling

This is a bit obscure. The manual says that major skills are easier to raise. Then it says the skills that are permanently fixed to the specialization are also easier to raise.

Can someone confirm this in reality? Wouldn't it make sense then, to choose as many different skills as possible? I mean, the tactic would be to maximize the amount of skills "easier to raise".

The way it works in the game is each skill keeps a running tally of what I call "advancement points". Every use of the skill earns a certain amount of these points. The total amount of AP required to raise the skill level varies, depending on the current level of the skill, if it's a major or minor skill for you, and if it's within your chosen specialty or not. Major skills within your specialty require the least number of AP to raise. Major skills outside your specialty are next, followed by minor skills within your specialty and minor skills outside your specialty require the most.

I haven't figured out an exact formula for how many points are needed, but as an example, a magic specialized character advancing a minor magic skill from 99 to 100 takes something like 194.12 points. I don't recall the exact number, but it's something similar to this. Conjuration earns 6 AP per casting, so it would take 33 castings to make that last level to Master. Quillan^Talk 00:27, 22 July 2006 (EDT)

This would of course mean to exclude all specialization-affiliated skills from your major skills, which maybe isn't a good idea.

However, there is an alternate way to look at this: if you wanted to be a fighter, you would actually select a Magic specialization, but yet combat skills as major skills.

Dunno if that makes any sense. Or how much easier those skills actually are to raise than others. More information is needed on this subject!

Regarding the explanation of faster levelling, I would like to change the way it is worded. Instead of saying "it only takes 75% as much exp to level" I would like to reword it to "skills train 33.33% faster." I think the latter form is easier to grok. Any thoughts? If there's no response, I'll just make the change. Ong elvin 08:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)

I'd suggest keeping both versions. While "skills train more quickly" may be easier to understand, the "less experience needed" explanation is also useful: it's necessary to understand the following example, it's consistent with the how game actually keeps track of the information, and it's consistent with more detailed information provided on the Increasing Skills page. Also I don't really agree with the logic behind "33% faster". If anything, I think a statement such as "skills can be trained in 25% less time" would be more accurate. (Skill training is not governed by a speed or rate such as 1 skill point/hour, but a statement such as "33% faster" implicitly transforms training into a rate. And trying to get from that rate statement to any type of player-relevant quantity, such as number of seconds spent running or number of weapon swings is really convoluted. Why not stick to numbers that can be directly applied to the game, such as 25% less?)

So perhaps a sentence such as "Specialized skills take 75% as much practice or 'experience' to level up, and therefore can be trained in 25% less time than regular skills". Just a suggestion. --Nephele^Talk 14:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)

33.3% faster is correct. 1.00 ÷ 0.75 = 1.3333..., which means 33.3% faster. 25% less effort to train the skill would also be good I guess, but that's just the inverse of 0.75. Perhaps something like this:

Minor skills level up at the normal rate. Skills that are Major or Specialized train faster; the game implements this by reducing the amount of experience required to level up. Specialized skills take 75% as much practice or 'experience' to level up; this converts to skills training 33.3% faster. Major skills that are NOT specialized take 60% of the normal experience to level up (66.6% faster). Skills that are both specialized AND major skills take 45% as much experience to level up (122.2% faster). A table of these experience requirements is provided at Increasing Skills.

That gets both rates in. I think it looks pretty straightforward for the casual gamer, and there's still the link to Increasing Skills for the nerds interested in the technical stuff. If you're still unsure of the 33.3% figure, try this explanation. If each level only requires 1.00exp, then 3.00exp means you level up three times. (3÷1=3) If each level only requires 0.75exp, then 3.00exp gets you four levels. (3÷0.75=4) Then using those numbers, (4÷3=1.33) which is 0.33 greater than 1.00. And that's how you get 33.3% faster. Ong elvin 22:30, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Oh, I've got a better idea, let's move the rate to the explanation of class majors. Like this:

Specialization (Combat, Magic, Stealth) -- +5 to related Skills. Specialized skills require 75% as much experience to level up.

Then in the paragraph at the end, use it to explain how the bonuses stack. Ong elvin 22:38, 28 January 2008 (EST)

I understand the math behind 33%. I'm just having a hard time seeing how it's a useful way to explain the information: what numbers that readers are given, or what number that players come across in game, would actually be increased by 33%? I can't think of too many, and even in the cases that I can think of, I don't think it ends up being an accurate way of looking at things. For example, if you leave your character stuck behind a wall sneaking for an hour, perhaps you would automatically gain 50 levels during that time if the skill is a normal skill. Since a specialized skill trains 33% faster, you'd infer that you would have gained 67 levels if it had been a specialized skill. But that's not a correct conclusion, because the levels are not based upon constant experience intervals. It takes more experience to get from level 20 to 21 than it did to get from level 19 to 20. You can't just take a constant linear rate and use it to extrapolate onto an exponentially increasing set of levels.

In the case that I just looked at, the increase was only 26% not 33%. Starting at skill=25, it takes 136 experience to reach skill=75 for a normal skill (50 skill levels). For a specialized skill, the same 136 experience takes you from skill=25 to skill=88 (63 skill levels), not up to skill=92. The average of 2.72 experience/level that you'd calculate for levels to 25-75 can not be applied to higher levels, so your fixed-rate calculation fails.

I appreciate that you want to try to improve the article to make the concepts easier to understand. My concern is that the improvements should not be at the expense of accuracy, and that the improvements shouldn't replace useful numbers with ones that superficially look good but practically can't really be used. If you can provide some real examples of a case where a player could take a number and multiply it by 1.333 to convert it from a base skill to a specialized skill, then it would help to convince me. But every example that I can come up with is one where multiplying by 0.75 is the only accurate conversion available. --Nephele^Talk 23:31, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Well... I suppose you have a point there. 0.75 is for time invested in improving the skill, 33% is for how much faster the skill increases. Both figures are accurate, but they consider the same concept from different angles. Two sides of the coin. :? Ong elvin 01:22, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Pre-made Classes

FMan/Tropyx - Sami Klemola

Should we maybe set out the pre-made classes kind of like the birthsigns. as in a list of links and then on the page just list the skills and other info, instead of the table which i reckon looks a little wierd. just a thought.

(also note: Illusion works good for stealth, due to it's ability to mask your presence)

Done. With nice pictures to boot. I left the chart up at the top, though I think it needs some work. First of all, the columns are in a strange order. You can tell it's split by Combat, Magic, and Stealth, but other than that, there seems no ryhme or reason. I'd say within each category, the 7 skills should be in alphabetical order. I'm also considering replacing those 3-letter abbreviations with the little icons I made for the People page, or perhaps just using the icons and the abbreviations together. Unfortunately, the table formatting is a bit challenging to edit, since you can't see it in chart-form while editting. So re-working the chart will take a bit of effort. (Excel doesn't read wiki-code.) I may work on this a bit to bring up to a better standard. --TheRealLurlock 10:34, 1 August 2006 (EDT)

Well, nothing gets it done like just doing it. Chart much better now. --TheRealLurlock 11:13, 1 August 2006 (EDT)

Minor gripe about chart: at a 1024x768 screen resolution it spills off the edge of the page. I couldn't see anything in the style guide regarding the screen resolutions one should follow, but it does make the page a little ugly.

I see from the page history that it used to be the same size and style as the one on the NPC Classes page, which doesn't have the problem, is there a reason it's not using the same style now?--Aishan 06:43, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

My bad. The reason for the change is simply that staring at the grid gave me a migraine. The reason the NPC Classes page hasn't been done is that I didn't know about it. The reason for the chart overflowing at 1024x768 is that I'm spoiled by big monitors and surf either at 1600x1200 or 1680x1050. I should have thought to check before making the change. I've made a couple of small changes and it now fits (in Firefox - I bet some browser somewhere causes an overflow :( ) --Rpeh^Talk 07:06, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

Explanation of Protection

Okay, the constant changes to the Battlemage section on this page were getting ridiculous. I've semi-protected it along with Morrowind:Classes to prevent further mis-information from being posted here. If you feel that the information is incorrect, please explain yourself here. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 14:19, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

Just a Comment...

Descriptions of "Knights": "...In addition to the arts of war, knights study the lore of healing..." Yet, they don't have "Restoration" as a "Major Skill". I'm not saying that's wrong according to the game, but, whatever.

That is the description used in morrowind, in oblivion it is a bit different

It's a similar deal for the Nightblade. The blurb suggests it should have Illusion or Sneak, if not both, but it has neither and basically works like a light Spellsword with no stealth whatsoever.

Knowledge without Power

Since, this is a custom class page I would like some help. Do forgive my typing skills becuase I am not very good. I am making a thief with the ability to summon weapons, heal, poison, and abilities of life sight, sneak, ranged weaponry, and blades but as the title says he has the knowledge but not the powers, by that I mean magic. so what major skills should i use? Although I have already made a charater I would like to know for help on later versions. — Unsigned comment by 99.237.148.26 (talk) a.k.a Helper Unknown 19:39, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

The ability to cast spells does not depend upon whether or not the skill is a major skill. Any character can learn to cast any spell that exists in the game, as long as you've gone through the requirements. Specifically:

• You need to have purchased the spell (or learned it in some other way, but purchasing is the most common way): see Spells for the merchants who sell each of the spells in the game.
• You need to have enough skill in that spell's magic school to cast the spell. If you don't have enough skill, you just need to spend time training the skill.
• You need to have enough Magicka to cast the spell. Training the skill helps with the Magicka requirement, but there are other ways, too (Fortify Magicka, Fortify Intelligence, etc.)

I hope that answers your question. --Nephele^Talk 02:07, 23 November 2007 (EST)

So judging by what you said, his major skills are:

• Conjuration
• Restoration
• Destruction
• Mysticism
• Sneak
• Marksman
• Blade

These skills will level faster, but you can still use, for example, Alteration magic. It will just be harder to get up to the level required. --218.186.13.3 06:35, 7 January 2008 (EST)

I would recommend swapping out marksman for alteration, as you can use destruction to create a hugely powerful ranged spell (provided you have the magicka), and alteration replaces the need for lockpicks, using a open spell (again, providing you have the magicka) Atomic223 22:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Custom Class Rolling

I was wondering if someone could help me roll a Magic/Combat class akin to a Spellsword. If you could give the race, sex, specialization, birthsign, and skills, that would help a lot. Thanks. --Twentyfists 20:31, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

The purpose of the talk pages is to discuss ways to improve the articles. The wiki is not here to provide individualized advice, but instead to document objectively how the game works so that each reader can decide for themselves how they would like to play the game. If you want to get feedback and advice on details of how you want to play the game, there are many other places that are more suitable for such discussions, for example UESP's forums or the official forums. --Nephele^Talk 20:50, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

Sorry. --Twentyfists 21:17, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

How about a Custom Class idea page? People can come up with an idea for a class and post it somewhere for Admin approval. Felindre 10:18, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Not too likely, given that it's already been tried once and the resulting article was of such poor quality that it was deleted following review. --Nephele^Talk 01:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)

Descriptions are wrong

Some or all of these descriptions are the Morrowind descriptions, and are wrong for Oblivion. For example, Knights don't have Enchant or Restoration in Oblivion. 85.164.193.19 15:37, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

Fixed. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 01:00, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

Pre-made vs Custom

Someone told me that using a Pre-made class was better than using a Custom Class, is this true? --Zander490 00:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

No. It's entirely up to you and the way you play your game. "Better" is subjective and I'm sure you'll find somebody prepared to stand up for each pre-made class as "best" and other people who will swear by their own custom version. rpeh •T•C•E• 04:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

True, there is no "wrong" class and better or worse is ultimately a subjective evaluation, but there is an objective truth to back up this claim. From Oblivion Character Planner's Advice -> Key Concerns information:

Avoid 3 major skills per attribute

If you make all three skills for any attribute majors, you cannot reach the maximum bonus for that attribute if any other major skill gets raised. Unfortunately, 19 of the 21 default classes (all except Rogue and Pilgrim) have one (or even two!) attributes with all 3 major skills. For example, if you choose the predefined Warrior class for a "sword and board" gameplay style, leveling one point in Athletics, Armorer, Block, or Heavy Armor (all skills you'd want to use), means you cannot reach the max +5 bonus for Strength because Blade, Blunt, and Hand-to-Hand are all majors (and the 9th point in these skills would increase your level).

The upshot is that the pre-made classes are much harder to level up without gimping them. IMHO, it is greatly preferred to create a custom class, but even this assumes you have some knowledge of how to avoid these pitfalls or are using a template or tool (like OCP). --Foam Head 02:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Its all subjective, really. I actually like, say, the Pilgrim, Yet if you look at his skills, he is none too good. Mercantile and Speechraft arent exactly the best Major's in the world, but I always Roleplayed over getting the best stats.

Specialization, Minor and Major skills

hello, first edit on this wiki ;) uhm, what confuses me [perhaps only me] is the description about the bonus these skills get. ingame it says Major get +25 and Specialization get +10 and, by the love of god, i could not get the numbers right while counting my skill points. off course it didn't help me that my Majors were a mish mash and some where leveled while not exactly knowing the race bonus... i had a sense of how it actually was but the lack of ingame explanation made me doubt myself. so i went here and it says +20 and +5. after seeing that i finally got it. it's basically the same thing if you add the +5 that all skills as default get.

so what i would like to propose is, to write something like this; "All skills get a standard +5, Specialization adds another +5 and Major adds +20. [note that the game describes the same thing somewhat different]" that way it makes it easier to grasp i think, or maybe i'm just stupid ;) thx 217.121.86.187 01:59, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Unless I missed something, it currently says that. elliot (talk) 04:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)