Morrowind talk:Foyada

Map accuracy

I think some of the Foyadas on this map are wrong. Of the seven listed, only three appear on any official map: Foyada Mamaea, Foyada Ashur-dan, and Foyada Bani-dad. The rest are only referenced in dialogue, and I don't think the description matches what's shown on the map. Here's what we have:

(Subject: "Nchuleftingth") - You can get there by going around the mountains near Suran and heading northeast along the Foyada Nadanat, or you can start in Molag Mar and head northwest towards Mount Kand. Go north around Mount Kand and along the north side of the Foyada.

Our map shows Foyada Nadanat as far to the east of the rest, way out of the way for a trip from Suran to Nchuleftingth. Nothing in the dialogue suggest that it goes anywhere near the Erabenimsun Camp. I think the purple line is more likely to be Foyada Nadanat than the blue one, but it's hard to say.

(Subject: "little advice") - Most pilgrims will need guards and guides to reach the pilgrim sites, but someone like you should have no trouble on your own. Follow Foyada Ilibaal northwest to Mount Kand, then Mount Assarnibibi is northeast of Mount Kand, across Foyada Zabirbael. Just take your time, keep landmarks in sight, and be ready to hoof it back to the stronghold if you get in trouble.

Foyada Ilibaal seems to be correct, but Foyada Zabirbael, as far as I can tell, does not exist. This is the only place it's mentioned, and quite simply, you cannot travel from Mount Kand to Mount Assarnibibi along any foyada. The foyada here travels southeast, not northeast, and you have to cross two ridges to make this trip. I don't know what the source is for this map, but I don't think it's correct, nor can it be, since we only know of the names of some of these through somewhat vague dialogue. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 15:44, 6 December 2008 (EST)

In terms of Foyada Zabirbael, it says that you go across the Foyada when traveling from Mount Kand to Mount Assarnibibi, not that you follow it to go from one mountain to the other. Which to me sounds like its supposed to be the dark blue foyada that is currently labeled as Nadanat. And, incidentally, also happens to be what is stated at the page listed as the source for this article. It doesn't look like Benould provided any explanation for the changes he made relative to the Tamriel-Almanach's version, and from what you're saying it seems like the changes may not be justified. --Nephele^Talk 16:10, 6 December 2008 (EST)

I looked at the original image - I'm not sure it's correct either. Good point on the "across" rather than "along", I suppose that might make more sense. But the Tamriel-Almanach version also doesn't seem to have the correct location for Foyada Nadanat, which is still way too far to the east considering that it's given in directions from Suran to Nchuleftingth. I don't read German, so I don't know how they arived at their conclusions there, but it seems iffy at best. I'm also a little bit unsure about Foyada Esannudan, having just mapped it. My take on it would be that Foyada Mamaea continues from south of Balmora all the way straight up to Dagoth Ur. The branch that goes off to the south and east just south of Odrosal, ending just west of the Dunirai Caverns, might be Foyada Esannudan. But it definitely seems like a side-branch. Having it called Mamaea all the way up to the Ghostfence and then suddenly change names to Esannudan doesn't make much sense. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 16:18, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Can anyone account for the green foyada Eannudan in Morrowind's CS Dialog database? That also seems the most surprising to me.

I wonder to what degree the terms 'lava chute' 'road' and 'valley' have blurred to together in Vvardenfell. Were I to write dialog designed to direct a player and aim at immersion I would not hesitate to say "Thirteen leagues northwest along Karstark Ridge," even though neither units of distance nor labels for various hills are present in the game. Perhaps we should simply take the foyadas that are not found here [1] off the map and simply explain their presence in dialog and general location, together with noting that vvardenfell's geography is in a constant state of volcanic flux. Ash once fell on Vivec's streets every day, and apparently the island lost half its trees not forty years ago.Temple-Zero 16:36, 6 December 2008 (EST)

I suspect the German site got their information here: [2]

Foyada Essanudan is referenced several times in dialogue:

• (Subject: "Dunirai Caverns") - Take this load of sujamma to Nelacar in the Dunirai Caverns southeast of Ghostgate between the Foyada Esannudan and the Foyada Ashur-Dan.
• (Subject: "crater citadels") - The only approach to the crater citadels is up Foyada Esannudan from Fort Moonmoth, through the Ghostfence at the fortress of Ghostgate, and down into the crater.
• (Subject: "specific place") - Ghostgate consists of two towers, the Tower of Dusk -- the west keep -- and the Tower of Dawn -- the east keep -- with a temple between the two towers, and a tunnel beneath the temple leading up Foyada Esannudan into Red Mountain.
• (Journal Entry for Sujamma to Dunirai) - Hrundi asked me to deliver a load of sujamma to Nelacar in the Dunirai Caverns which is southeast of Ghostgate between the Foyada Esannudan and the Foyada Ashur-Dan.

Now, looking at the paper map, the foyada in which Ghostgate is located is clearly marked as Foyada Mamaea. There doesn't seem to be any place where it could break off and change from one name to another. So that really confuses me, because the game definitely seems to be giving two different names to the same foyada. Also the fact that Fort Moonmoth is mentioned makes it even more confusing - Moonmoth is less than a centimeter away from the words "Foyada Mamaea" on the paper map, and there's no way it splits down that far.

For the rest, based on the dialogue, I'm proposing a new theory. Foyada Zabirbael is the semi-circular one that goes around Mount Kand. The one leading up from Molag Mar to Foyada Zabirbael, passing the peak of Mount Kand on the way, is Foyada Ilibaal. The one running parallel to that just to the west is Foyada Nadanat, which also ends at Foyada Zabirbael. (This jives better with the directions from Suran. If you were to extend this one just a little bit, you'd hit Nchuleftingth.) The foyada currently labeled as Foyada Nadanat, which runs up Mount Assarnibibi to the east of the rest, we currently have no name for, and probably never will.

Anyhow, attributing the differences to volcanic flux doesn't really work, because the sources for these statements are in dialogue, by people living in the game. If it were from books, that'd be one thing. Books can contain outdated information that's no longer true. But people describe things as they currently are, or at least as they were last they looked, so I'd say their descriptions of the foyadas are the most accurate and up to date, given that it's supposedly based on actual life experience. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 17:00, 6 December 2008 (EST)

We shouldn't blame the discrepancies on shifting geography, only mention the factor if we can't get a good answer. Unless your new labels are clearly correct (I haven't studied each one) we're going to have to admit that it is uncertain. The funny thing is, the land did change. The devs edited the heightmap after the dialog was written. Or maybe it wasn't really matched in the first place, just throwaway names that could refer to any one of the region's labyrinthine canyons.Temple-Zero 17:07, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Yet more evidence that Foyada Mamaea and Foyada Esannudan are one and the same:

• (Subject: "Foyada Mamaea") - Foyada Mamaea is a volcanic ravine that runs from the top of Red Mountain southwest to its end just below Balmora. An old Dwemer bridge crosses the foyada near Fort Moonmoth. The best route to Ghostgate is to follow Foyada Mamaea up from where the Pelagiad-Balmora road crosses the foyada southeast of Fort Moonmoth.

Since Ghostgate and Fort Moonmoth cannot be in two places at once, and this dialogue places them both in Foyada Mamaea, contrary to the previously mentioned dialogue that places them in Foyada Esannudan, the only possible conclusion is that these are two different names for the same location. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 17:11, 6 December 2008 (EST)

The fact that they are divided by a manmade structure helps that view a little. Also remember that Mamaea is the name of a cave and an Ashlander woman as well, neither of which are in the vicinity.Temple-Zero 17:16, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Three Ashlander women, actually. (There's a Mamaea Ashun-Idantus and a Mamaea Ularshanentus at random camps in the wilderness.) I suspect this is merely the result of coincidences from the random-name-generator. It's not so easy to come up with a couple thousand unique names without having any overlap. So are you saying that the Dwemer bridge marks the divide between Foyada Mamaea and Foyada Esannudan? There does appear to be a bend in the path there, but I'm not sure that's significant enough to give the foyada a whole new name. But at least the map is definitely wrong either way. Foyada Essanudan extends at least as far down as Moonmoth, and yet the description for Foyada Mamaea has it going all the way up to the top of Red Mountain, so either they overlap somehow, or they just used two names for the same place, which I think is more likely. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 17:26, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Whilst you're almost certainly right about Mamaea=Esannudan, could the latter have been intended to be the foyada containing Sharapli (see our (map)). That at least fits with the Dunirai Cavern descriptions. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:31, 7 December 2008 (EST)

That's pretty much what I was saying above when I first mentioned Esannudan. In fact, that was what I was thinking when I created the map of it. It makes sense, except it does conflict with the dialogue stating that Ghostgate and Moonmoth are in that foyada. I think it might make sense to claim that on the map (to jive with the Dunirai Cavern dialogue), and then clarify the discrepency in the article. The only other option would be to just make Foyada Esannudan a redirect to Foyada Mamaea, and note the two names in the article. (This makes more sense than making Mamaea redirect to Esannudan, because Mamaea is what appears on the paper map.) But I think keeping them as separate articles with the appropriate disclaimers makes the most sense. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 14:07, 7 December 2008 (EST)

I've just uploaded my take on the foyadas, based on some of the things in this discussion. I changed my mind slightly on Foyada Nadanat when I reread the statement giving directions to Nchuleftingth. They distinctly state to travel northeast along the foyada, and the one I was thinking of goes north-northwest for the entire length of it. But I think this makes much more sense than the previous map, which has Nadanat marked far to the east of all the others, and doesn't travel in a northeasterly direction either. As for Mamaea/Esannudan, there's not much we can do other than state the discrepencies in the articles. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 14:34, 7 December 2008 (EST)