Lore talk:Forest of Dreams

Status as a Plane and as Part of Mundus

Viewing the single actual source that mentions the Forest of Dreams, I do not think there is sufficient evidence to say that the Forest of Dreams is a plane or is part of Mundus. What is the justification for making these claims about it? --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 14:56, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Its status as plane is inferred from the fact that it is a place of "eternal rest" and the fact that the actual place of Hela's rest is surely not a forest (its a barow in the mountains) so it cant refer to that place. Places of 'eternal rest' are in this context the realms of arftelife. Mundus is indeed an assumption, though the naboxes do not work without placing realms anywhere. That said it was changed to remove ambiguity.Tyrvarion (talk) 15:03, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

It's certainly an afterlife location at the very least. I think that is un-ambigous. Though it could be a location within Sovengarde or it's own plane that part is hard to say. Though given what we know about the person who went there, it almost seems like an alternative.Tarponpet (talk) 03:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Merge with Lore:Sovngarde

Happyb3 brought this up in his edit, using the etymology of Sovn-gard translating to Sleep Place. While I disagree that the etymology should be used, on the Discord he also mentioned Frokki going to Sovngarde when he dies, despite being a devout follower of Kyne. This implies that followers of Kyne still go to Sovngarde, and that this "Forest of Dreams" might be synonymous or a part of Sovngarde. Because the one mention of the Forest of Dreams doesn't even directly confirm that it is a realm of Kyne, just that a follower of Kyne will find eternal rest there, I don't think it is page-worthy regardless, and am thus more willing to support this merge, contingent that it is a note at the bottom of Lore:Sovngarde and keeps an entry on Lore:Places (Lore:Planes of Existence and the navbox are more iffy). Mindtrait0r (talk) 03:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I oppose. It is an original research to claim that they are one place if canon sources clearly attribute it to separate gods. Many Nords, most of them before the Imperialization put a huge emphasis on Kyne and nothing seems to indicate that Froki should be used as example. Sleep is a term often used as an euphemism for death as well, nothing strange about it being used multiple times in context of places of eternal rest. Moreover the idea that articles must go instead to Lore:places if they are too short is not in fact a wiki policy. There is nothing wrong about mentionning Sovngarde here as the predominant place associated in Nord culture with the afterlife, but to state they are the same - or that one is part of another is speculation. Also let us focus on the Forest part - which has clear connection to Kyne as also a deity of nature. Something Shor is not known for, beyond being Kyne's husband. Additionally, while this is in fact a speculation, the fact that Sovngard is all about place for deceased warriors, this is a place relating to a woman who was a friend of all beasts mentioned on a wall dedicated to Kyne's Peace seems to show certain intention. Either way it's more than fair to mention the situation about Sovngarde in notes here and likewise one on Sovngarde's page about the Forest, though we could just not rely on etymology and be more general in their connection rather than direct.Tyrvarion (talk) 06:05, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to have taken so long, Mindtrait0r. Real life got in the way. I'll just start by pointing out that no source ever actually "attributes" the Forest of Dreams to any god whatsoever. Here lies (the) body of Hela, friend to all beasts, servant of Kyne. May she find eternal rest in the Forest of Dreams. This is the beginning and end of the existence of the "Forest of Dreams" in the lore, and this does not actually tell us that this is a place Kyne has dominion over, just that whoever wrote that wall hopes that Hela, who is a servant of Kyne, finds her afterlife in that place. So as things currently stand, the page is already making unsubstantiated claims.

Kyne is otherwise known for taking the dead to Sovngarde: Kyne is called the Kiss at the End, for most Nords agree that Kyne leads the dead to Sovngarde. Taking people to afterlives is Kyne's job as a psychopomp across every pantheon, no matter what the people call her (like Khenarthi to the Sands Behind the Stars, the Cult of Phynaster blessing the souls of the fallen for their final journey and "bringing proper closer, for the departed and the survived", and even Tava guiding souls despite Tu'whacca usually being the more popular psychopomp), because the Sky God is also always the God of Travels (including to the afterlife and other realms).

Likewise, in every flavor of Nordic religion, Sovngarde was considered to be the afterlife (even at the time of the Dragon Cult, as evidenced by the door guarded on Skuldafn), and for non-Dragon Cultists, Kyne is always the chief deity of the Nordic Pantheon (because of the absence of Shor, unless you're Heimskr, who thinks Talos is now "lord of the Divines"). It would be extremely weird for the priesthood specifically dedicated of the chief of the Pantheon to somehow believe in a completely different afterlife than the rest of the religion. Kyne worship is not exactly supposed to be marginal, it's the Nordic norm.

Moreover, Sovngarde (and Aetherius as a whole for that matter) is very closely associated with Dreams: Kodlak (in his journal) and Skardan Free-Winter (in A Dream of Sovngarde) both visit Sovngarde in their dreams, and sleep and death have always been associated in mythology (for example, to the Greeks, Hypnos and Thanatos were twin brothers). Sovngarde's name originates from IRL Scandinavian "Søvngård" meaning "Garden of Sleep" (or "Sleep Land", because "gård" is pretty versatile and can mean lots of place-types), of which the name of the "Forest of Dreams" afterlife, present on a Word Wall eulogy, reads less like a different afterlife and more like an alternative translation, especially given this is a place of "eternal rest" (in keeping with the metaphor of death as sleep). And Sovngarde itself, in addition to the Hall of Valor, contains the Shadowed Vale: a vast grassland which is only "shadowed" because of Alduin's magical mist used to prevent the dead from reaching the Hall (the "evil snare"). I doubt the ancient Nords would have known this place as "the Shadowed Vale". Even in-game dialogue by the people found in Sovngarde associate the realm with dreams: "Don't you know? What drew you here? Surely your dreams showed you the way. The Hall of Valor, where heroes wait to follow Shor to the final battle. I saw it fair when first I trod this long-sought path. The pain and fear vanished, dreamlike, and a vision beckoned to-- Shor's hall, shimmering across the clouded vale."

Lastly, Froki Whetted-Blade himself is a worshipper of Kyne who follows the old ways of the Nords. By this article's own admission (servants of Kyne found eternal rest in the Forest of Dreams, such as Hela, who was known as a "friend to all beasts"), Froki should have ended in the Forest of Dreams had he died. And I argue he quite literally does: he appears in the mist of Sovngarde, in the wilderness halfway across the map, around the central area with the broken down Word Wall, the part that looks the most like a forest.

All in all, I understand if one thinks outright stating that the Forest of Dreams is Sovngarde under another title is going too far because it relies on intensive Original Research and cross-references of both in-game and real life information. But as it currently stands, the opposite statement is both unfounded (it makes assumptions the text does not actually state directly) and it is in direct contradition to basic media literacy regarding the in-game theme of Sovngarde and Dreams and does an actual disservice to the community, since this is basically misinformation. In the absence of being allowed to present original research, I think people should individually be allowed to piece the answer together for themselves with the information available, which won't happen if this article is allowed to remain in its current state of citogenesis. HappyB3 (talk) 21:38, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Information that followers of Kyne also go to Sovngarde can be certainly added to this page and a note saying whether the place is perhaps (a part of) Sovngarde or not is unclear. We do have a number of pages dedicated to specific places within other realms (though usually it is for Oblivion, but that's because we know so much more about them). It existing merely as a redirect and/or note to a Sovngarde page is a mistake. I do not agree that the page itself is misleading, though assertion that it is a realm on its own - may be. Removing its link from in Lore:Realms and instead placing link to it on Lore:Places could solve this, cause it surely is some sort of place even if it is a part of realm.Tyrvarion (talk) 22:33, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I like Tyrvarion's changes and I support the page now. Mindtrait0r (talk) 23:34, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The new note looks a lot better and should clear up the similarities between the two realms. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 23:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the note is sufficient until such a time that a more concrete association is made, and the merge is therefore not needed at this time. --Enodoc (talk) 12:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)