Lore talk:Ehlnofey

Are the Aedra Considered Ehlnofey?

First of all, ARE the Aedra considered Ehlnofey? I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards no. Need to look it up. And second, we might as well just dispense with the categories and write it all out, or maybe at least get text on the page before trying to format it.Temple-Zero 20:42, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Heh, half of what is there came from our dictionary entry. Again, I thought this needs more then the three lines that were [[Lore:Dictionary_E#Ehlnofey|here]]. Don't feel constrained by the categorization, by all means write it out. I don't know enough about the subject to do so myself ;) --Benould^•T•C 20:50, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

The sources I've read indicate the Aedra and Daedra are classified as a type of being known as et'Ada, and the Ehlnofey are the offspring of the Aedra. They're the step between Aedra and mortal races. I'm not sure where beings like the Hist or Dragons fit into this tree of life, though. Many questions remain unaddressed. - Pilaf the Defiler — Unsigned comment by 64.253.223.247 (talk) at 03:09 on 9 November 2012‎

Not a race, why?

I don't know how to fix it, but this page should be in the Races category. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Expansion and separation per belief system

I'd like to propose that the article be separated into sections corresponding to the different beliefs/narratives we have on the Ehlnofey, each going into detail on the particular origin.

The Ehlnofey from the Annuad and the 12 Worlds are distinct from the Ehlnofey from Heart of the World or Before the Ages of Man despite sharing a name. The Ehlnofey of the Annuad (as inhabitants of one of the 12 Worlds preceding it) predate a Nirn formed directly by Anu, the formation of which leads to the "god and demons" of the world also forming after it, birthed from the blood of the brothers (Anu, Padomay) when it is spilled.

The Ehlnofey of Heart of the World and Before the Ages of Man are a sub-group of the original Et'Ada which create Nirn themselves.

Also perhaps some additional info on the exact mechanisms of the believed origin and the gradual progression it describes:

In Heart of the World we are told that:

"Some escaped, like Magnus, and that is why there are no limitations to magic. Others, like Y'ffre, transformed themselves into the Ehlnofey, the Earthbones, so that the whole world might not die. Some had to marry and make children just to last. Each generation was weaker than the last, and soon there were Aldmer. Darkness caved in. Lorkhan made armies out of the weakest souls and named them Men, and they brought Sithis into every quarter."

And Varieties of Faith and the PGE 3: Blessed Isle define the members of the merish pantheons as among their believed genealogical ancestors, the former mentions how the Altmer and Bosmer claim "direct descent from Auri-El", and the latter names Auri-El, Trinimac, Phynaster and Syrabane as elvish ancestors (in the literal sense).

In Onus of the Oghma which quotes the "Aldmeriad" the "earliest origin saga of the elves", we have Xarxes address the Aldmer as "true children of the Et'Ada" and other elvish texts claims of the the Altmer that "Our genetic lineage can be traced to the original Aldmer race, through the Ehlnofey to the divine et'Ada themselves."

And Aedra themselves are variously described as the "mortal gods" (The Prophet and Umaril) or the "dead gods" (Vastarie) who "told the tale of their own deaths" (Psijic Compromise) and have Mundus "serve as their cemetery" (Lyranth's 2nd LM Archive) who can be "killed per the contract of creation" (Aedra and Daedra book). Akatosh himself has been described as a "dragon ghost" (Glorious Upheaval).

While a number of the sources might be superfluous to mention and (much like the Annuad and Heart of the World) might reflect different beliefs, overall the elvish perspective would be: The Aedra created the world and we are their descendants that resulted over time through a phenomenon of diminishment of each consecutive generation compared to the last (Ehlnofey-Aldmer-Altmer and so on as distinct stages each). So you get from Dringoth the giant to more modern elves/men/so on.

Given half the elven pantheon is named as ancestors personally I'd also question what meaningful distinction we can drawn from "Aedra" at all, in the text Ehlnofey are just "those who made children to last" and the elven gods fit the description. To state such directly in the absence of a direct statement I'm not sure about, but regardless I would argue that the description of minor spirits that degenerated into mortals (from the related Aedra article) be adjusted/elaborated upon.

Normally I'd just attempt to edit myself and wait for feedback but, given how nebulous the topic of the Ehlnofey is in general, I thought it best to ask for opinions/suggestions before attempting any changes.

Apologies if I was too longwinded, going to wait for feedback now.

--Gleaming Veil (talk) 20:08, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

The entire topic is hard to tackle that I think separating it in some capacity would be great.Analeah Oaksong (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree, there's a near identical separation on Lore:Nede regarding their origins. This case could be much the same, separating the two theories (aboriginal beings vs. ascended spirits) into a split box. Even MK officially condoned this theory, search "Correct." in here to see that. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:57, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both for the feedback, I'll start on a version with separate sections for each origin as soon as I can. --Gleaming Veil (talk) 03:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Trinimac identified as an Ehlnofey in Lord of Souls ?

Been going over the starting chapters of Lord of Souls and noticed something interesting. In page 9, where Attrebus is recounting the tales he heard of Malacath as a child to Silhansa/disguised Malacath, he says the following:

I don’t tell it as well as she did,” he admitted, “but I remember the tale.” He paused for a moment, remembering Helna’s singsong voice. He closed his eyes and pictured his bed, and her sitting there, hands folded. For just an instant he felt the shadow of the comfort he’d known then, the innocence that had protected him from the world.

“In the bygone- by,” he began, “there was a hero named Trinimac, the greatest knight of the Ehlnofey, champion of the Dragon of Time

The tale identifies Trinimac directly as the "greatest knight of the Ehlnofey, champion of the Dragon of Time", as such, should he be added as a notable member of the group ? Normally I'd be hesitant to name any deity directly given how nebulous the concept is, but in this case at least we've Trinimac being named as one directly (in at least some beliefs).--Gleaming Veil (talk) 19:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

It's worth mentioning it for a significant deity like him.Analeah Oaksong (talk) 20:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I would be careful, since in English that phrase can just mean that he's the knight/champion who serves the Ehlnofey, not neccesarily that the is one themselves. Like someone being referenced as the "greatest knight of the Kings of England, Champion of King Richard", you wouldn't assume that person IS a king of england themselves. Jeancey (talk) 20:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah,though, I'm not sure what else he could be ? The only definition we get for Ehlnofey, in the context of elven myth and not the Annuad at least, is that they:a) stayed after Magnus left and b) "made children to last", and Trinimac fits both descriptors (since the PGE names him as an elven ancestor in the genealogical sense).In that context I think Attrebus' description being "the greatest knight among the Ehlnofey" flows more naturally. Add it as a note rather than an outright statement of membership with the exact wording to account for every reading, perhaps ?Like "Trinimac has been called the greatest knight of the Ehlnofey in certain Cyrodiilic tales ?" or such ?--Gleaming Veil (talk) 21:43, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

That works, keeps it vague and accurate to the source. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree, a note works. It definitely could be read either way, which makes a note the best method. We might want to spell out something like "This could mean that Trinimac was an Ehlnofey, or simply served the Ehlnofey" Jeancey (talk) 22:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, plus that way implicit statements about anyone else can be avoided (if Trinimac alone is named directly). I added it as a note that he was described in that manner in certain Cyrodiilic folktales, with the exact wording Attrebus used. Thought of mentioning it as a 4E belief in particular, but there's no mention of how far back the tale goes exactly, so left it as is.--Gleaming Veil (talk) 23:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the note we now have on the page looks good 👍 The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Aedra and Ehlnofey as overlapping terms

Going to rip the bandaid off, I think a discussion on whether "Aedra" and "Ehlnofey" ought to be treated as overlapping terms is somewhat overdue. This will be rather long by necessity. Given how opaque the sources regarding this topic are I thought it best to start a discussion and see how others view the topic in question before making any edits or such ,different readings, some source I might've missed, anything really. More than that, I think there needs to be a discussion on the topic overall as its clear there are a number of different readings on it.

The manner in which the group is defined in elvish mythic sources is as follows:

In Heart of the World/Monomyth:

"But this was a trick. As Lorkhan knew, this world contained more limitations than not and was therefore hardly a thing of Anu at all. Mundus was the House of Sithis. As their aspects began to die off, many of the et'Ada vanished completely. Some escaped, like Magnus, and that is why there are no limitations to magic. Others, like Y'ffre, transformed themselves into the Ehlnofey, the Earthbones, so that the whole world might not die. Some had to marry and make children just to last. Each generation was weaker than the last, and soon there were Aldmer. Darkness caved in. Lorkhan made armies out of the weakest souls and named them Men, and they brought Sithis into every quarter.

In Before the Ages of Man:

When Magic (Magnus), architect of the plans for the mortal world, decided to terminate the project, the Gods convened at the Adamantine Tower [Direnni Tower, the oldest known structure in Tamriel] and decided what to do. Most left when Magic did. Others sacrificed themselves into other forms so that they might Stay (the Ehlnofey). Lorkhan was condemned by the Gods to exile in the mortal realms, and his heart was torn out and cast from the Tower. Where it landed, a Volcano formed. With Magic (in the Mythic Sense) gone, the Cosmos stabilized. Elven history, finally linear, began (ME2500).

The texts describe the "Ehlnofey" as those spirits (et'Ada specifically) who chose to stay past the departure or Magnus and the Magna-Ge, some like Y'ffre becoming the "Ehlnofey, the Earthbones" or laws of nature and some "having to make children just to last" with their lines gradually giving rise to mortals as we know them after generations underwent increasing diminishment compared to each preceding one.

This is further clarified by some of MK's texts and posts:

The term Earth Bone can refer to a few different types of mythical entities. The Ehlnofex term for "Earth Bone" is Ehlnofey. The Ehlnofey were a race of pre-Convention spirits who wrote in Ehlnofex script. Some Ehlnofey sacrificed themselves entirely into Nirn and became the bones of the earth, as eternal laws of nature. Others chose not to completely sacrifice themselves, but they were doomed to live on through their children instead of living eternally. These children became the ancestors of mer and men. Generally, when people say Earth Bones they're referring to the laws of nature, and when people say Ehlnofey, they're referring to the spirits who didn't sacrifice themselves. MK:Correct.

From Nu-Mantia Intercept:

The Jills did not have their full powers; rather, I should say, all the mundex spirits had every power at every time amendment at every ordering, which is to say none of them could ever fully express; our world was young and so were its architect gods.

The next is known to all of us in different ways, and the impossibility of the Dawn lends all of these memories credence. I speak of the Ur-Tower, Adamantine, anon Direnni, and of its creation and purpose.

Auriel-that-is-Akatosh returned to Mundex Arena from his dominion planet, signaling all Aedra to convene at a static meeting that would last outside of aurbic time. His sleek and silver vessel became a spike into the changing earth and the glimmerwinds of its impact warned any spirit that entered aura with it would become recorded-- that by consent of presence their actions here would last of a period unassailable, and would be so whatever might come later to these spirits, even if they rejoined the aether or succumbed willingly or by treachery to a sithite erasure. Thus could the Aedra and their cohorts truly covene in realness The outcome of the Convention was to leave the terrestrial sphere in their excess, for its own good, but that it should last after their departure as in the semblance of the Ada-mantia. Mundus was given its second Tower, the Red, whose First Stone was the Heart of the World, "as in the image."

By these words I intone the many-headed language of the Ehlnofey. The phrase-meanings can be both "as in the image of the kings become the hearts of their shadows" and "the shadows in kingly hearts are images of as", where "as" is meant in the sheathe of an ur word. Time began to last in stepped-fashion. Those spirits that remained, lesser and greater, involuntary or eventual earthbone, surrendered all definite hold on divinity. Aldmeris bore witness and built the remaining towers during the Merethic: White-Gold, Crystal-like-Law, Orichalc, Green-Sap, Walk-Brass, Snow Throat, and on and on, "aad semblio impera."''''

Here MK agrees to define Ehlnofey as "pre-Convention spirits" who, as in Heart of the World, either gave themselves entirely to become the laws of nature, or didn't and had children who than went on to become the ancestors to mortals etc. The term "Earthbone" being often used for the former group and "Ehlnofey" for the latter (but not always).

Nu-Mantia Intercept (an in universe text) places the Aedra as a term within that same timeframe (Auriel calls the Aedra to convene at Ada-Mantia). It is also said that "all Mundex spirits' have "every power at every time amendment at every ordering" within the Dawn, and that all spirits that remained "involuntary or eventual Earthbone, surrendered all definite hold on divinity".

Here one might think to institute a distinction of some sort from well known deities, but looking at a few more sources paints a rather different picture. As mentioned above, "Ehlnofey" is a term generally used for those spirits that became progenitors to mortals. And these spirits, these ancestors are named, at least for some of them.

From Varieties of Faith:

Auri-El (King of the Aldmer): The Elven Akatosh is Auri-El. Auri-El is the soul of Anui-El, who, in turn, is the soul of Anu the Everything. He is the chief of most Aldmeri pantheons. Most Altmeri and Bosmeri claim direct descent from Auri-El.

From the PGE 3 section on Summerset:

Early Aldmer society was agricultural and politically egalitarian. A system of ancestor worship had been exported whole from Aldmeris, and it brought with it a communal spirit that served the early settlers of Summerset well. When the Aldmer came together as a people to create the Crystal Tower, it was not a monument to any king or god, but rather to the spirit of the elven people, living and dead.

The religion of the people also changed because of this change in society: no longer did the Aldmer worship their own ancestors, but the ancestors of their "betters." Auriel, Trinimac, Syrabane, and Phynaster are among the many ancestor spirits who became Gods. A group of elders rebelled against this trend, calling themselves the Psijics, the keepers of the Old Ways of Aldmeris.

From Elder Scrolls Online Knowledge Base:

The Aldmeri Dominion has adopted as its symbol the eagle sigil of the High Elves of Summerset. For the Altmer, the high-soaring eagle represents their ancestors the Aedra, who came from the heavens and were trapped in physical form by the creation of Nirn.

Here we see two things, that figures like Auriel and Trinimac are specifically considered ancestor spirits and progenitors to mortals, with modern Altmer and Bosmer claiming they are direct descendants of Auri-El himself in particular (making it clear he is not divorced from those who "had to make children to last" as a group as framed in the elven myth (being considered the chief ancestor of the elves in a literal genealogical sense even). And also that the elven pantheon does not consist of the figures it does because of some reason such as them being considered a different and more exalted class of being or such, but rather because as part of a political shift in Summerset the nobility enacted a religious change which saw their own progenitors being elevated above the rest to be viewed as "gods" in regards to their place in the faith (this being considered a betrayal and corruption by some Aldmeri elders who departed and founded the Psijic Order).

A direct connection is also drawn by some sources for Trinimac, who is identified in folktales communicated to young Attrebus Mede by his caretaker, Helna, as follows, from page 9 of Lord of Souls:

'I don’t tell it as well as she did,” he admitted, “but I remember the tale.” He paused for a moment, remembering Helna’s singsong voice. He closed his eyes and pictured his bed, and her sitting there, hands folded. For just an instant he felt the shadow of the comfort he’d known then, the innocence that had protected him from the world.

“In the bygone- by,” he began, “there was a hero named Trinimac, the greatest knight of the Ehlnofey, champion of the Dragon of Time''''

Here, Trinimac is named as "the greatest knight of the Ehlnofey", importantly this is in a post Convention context as well (unless one places the Velothi schism in Dawn). The tale concerns the Velothi Schism and is a variation of the "transformation of Trinimac" theme. Notable also that Trinimac has been identified also as "Aedra" by other sources such as Madam Whim in her Loremaster's Archive.

If not a pre-existing distinction, here one might be tempted to institute based one on the "cost" of creation, after all major Aedra are in no sense "mortal", surely ? Not so the theme of mortality and death is very pronounced in sources describing the Aedra, even the most major of deities among them.

From Aedra and Daedra: Aedra created the mortal world and are bound to the Earth Bones. Daedra, who cannot create, have the power to change. As part of the divine contract of creation, the Aedra can be killed. Witness Lorkhan and the moons.'

From Myth of Aurbis/Monomyth:

Finally, the magical beings of Mythic Aurbis told the ultimate story -- that of their own death. For some this was an artistic transfiguration into the concrete, non-magical substance of the world. For others, this was a war in which all were slain, their bodies becoming the substance of the world. For yet others, this was a romantic marriage and parenthood, with the parent spirits naturally having to die and give way to the succeeding mortal races.

The agent of this communal decision was Lorkhan, whom most early myths vilify as a trickster or deceiver. More sympathetic versions of this story point out Lorkhan as being the reason the mortal plane exists at all.

The magical beings created the races of the mortal Aurbis in their own image, either consciously as artists and craftsmen, or as the fecund rotting matter out of which the mortals sprung forth, or in a variety of other analogical senses.

The magical beings, then, having died, became the et'Ada. The et'Ada are the things perceived and revered by the mortals as gods, spirits, or geniuses of Aurbis. Through their deaths, these magical beings separated themselves in nature from the other magical beings of the Unnatural realms.''''

From Vastarie (a former Psijic): Why do you worship Azura instead of the Divines? '"Love. With Azura, everything begins with love. A love that is fierce, possessive, even cruel—but always true, and impossibly deep. I mean no offense, but worshiping the dead gods always struck me as a fantastically dull and unfulfilling tradition."' '

From Umaril the Unfeathered (a demigod): As balangua, Ehlnada racuvar!" ("By my power, the mortal gods shall be cast down!")

From Lyranth's second LM Archive: Rather than pondering the stars' alleged role in Dagon's birth, you might consider their other failures. Is there anything so low as a Magna Ge? Say what you will about Mundus's creators—at least they displayed conviction. What greater exercise of will exists than to die in pursuit of an impossible goal?'

And from her first LM Archive: Second, you make the common mortal error of conflating the craven et'Ada who fled creation to Aetherius with the foolish et'Ada who sacrificed their power to create the Mundus, that theater that serves as their cemetery. But foolish or no, the so-called Divines who created the mortal theater undoubtedly wrought order from chaos through a great act of will, which is a brutal coercion we Daedra must admire. They cannot have achieved what they were aiming at, for you mortals and your 'world' are quite ridiculous, but the folly was a noble one."

From Glorious Upheaval: Reject the Eyeless Aedra, rotting in Aetherius, that prison realm where flaccid souls languish, useless and drained. Deny their commands and revel in combat, speak heresies as black as the Void, and laugh in the face of the Dragon Ghost Akatosh and his crumbling kin.

The theme is present across sources, the Psijics, Vastarie, Lyranth, the cult of Boethiah, Umaril. The spirits that created Mundus are described as having died in the process with that world being their cemetery, it is their death that separated them in nature from other spirits and in so doing, in dying, they "became the et'Ada" that mortals revere (granted this being something of a variation regarding understanding of the term et'Ada specifically). They are the "Dead Gods" the "Mortal Gods" subject to death per the contract of creation, Akatosh himself a "ghost".

Note that only Auri-El is ever described as having "ascended" to Aetherius, the others "departed from worldly affairs" and are said to reside in Aetherius (per Serana's description in Dawnguard) but we're not told the manner in which this occured. And what is Aetherius anyway ? The afterlife.

This wording is also used for the Earthbones, who are said to have become the laws of nature through death. From Baladas in Morrowind:

"It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane.

This whole thing is also contextualized by an important quote of MK regarding events: Is it just me, or are the Convention and the Ehlnofex Wars the same events, told in different ways? (2009-01-13) It's not just you.

What was the cause of their war? MKirkbride: That was the Dawn. Wars then were ideologies given skin.

Here MK clarifies that "Convention" is the "Ehlnofex Wars" just "told in different ways". A "war" in the context of Dawn is "ideology given skin". To be at the "war" places one at Convention and vice versa.

In terms of etymology, "Aedra" means/is defined based on the following.

From Aedra and Daedra:

"Aedra" and "Daedra" are not relative terms. They are Elvish and exact. Azura is a Daedra both in Skyrim and Morrowind. "Aedra" is usually translated as "ancestor," which is as close as Cyrodilic can come to this Elven concept. "Daedra" means, roughly, "not our ancestors." This distinction was crucial to the Dunmer, whose fundamental split in ideology is represented in their mythical genealogy.

From Praise Be (Ancestor Song): Clap hands in praise Exalt the Divines! Clap hands and praise Our ancestral lines!'

And from Primate Artorius' LM Archive:

'I would like to hear your opinion of why she is considered a Daedric Prince: is it because she created a realm in Oblivion out of the Sun's light instead of returning to Aetherius? Also is Magnus considered a Daedra as well? He did, like Meridia, not give his powers up when Nirn was being formed." – Melanion, Templar of Stendarr and Meridia "As regards Magnus, he is not considered one of the Eight Divines, for though he gave much, he did not give all. When he withdrew from the Mundus, he left mortals the gift of magic, a dubious contribution that does the world at least as much ill as good—however, there is no doubt as to his Aedric nature. But I invite you to come to Kvatch, Melanion, that we may discuss these matters further, and clear up your many misconceptions."'

'

Aedra" is not a relative term, it is "elvish and exact" and represents the mythical genealogy of the elves as they perceive it. It means "ancestor" because the spirits defined as such are perceived as being at the source of the elves' "ancestral lines" (the song in particular names Xarxes, Y'ffre, Auriel, Trinimac and Mara). Even regarding Magnus there is "no doubt as to his Aedric nature" as he gave of himself for Mundus, he is simply not considered a Divine by the Cyrodiilics because he gave less than the rest and thus is not as highly revered (an Aedra is defined, by the Imperial Cult at least, as such because of their sacrifice and held in higher esteem the greater the cost they endured for the sake of creation).

"Ehlno" means "mortal" in the Ayleid language. The term Umaril corresponding to the "Mortal Gods" term used by Umaril is "Ehlnada" (literally mortal spirits/gods). And Ehlnofey ? Its in all likelihood a synonymous term. Ehlno-Fey. Fey also being a name used regarding the Faerie a type of spirit existing in a system which some theories claim includes the gods.

Now, of course, there are sources which draw a direct distinction between terms. The Anuad, and Mystery of Artaeum.

In the Anuad the text is actually referring to a different creation narrative entirely however, the Ehlnofey predate the Aedra/Daedra/Magna-Ge and are brought to Nirn alongside part of a prior world after Anu creates it. The Aedra and Daedra and such are born well after per the narrative from Anu and Padomay's blood directly.

And from Mystery of Artaeum: The Psijic monks follow the "Old Ways," combining mysticism, the Eleven Forces, and the divine laws that bind and define the nature of reality into a philosophy and way of life. They are said to have a deep understanding of the Ehlnofey, also known as the Earth Bones, the descendants of the Aedra who once walked Tamriel and gave rise to the races of man and mer. Much of the ritual-based magic the order employs utilizes this understanding, supposedly granting them influence over time and weather.

This text defines Ehlonfey as the original/early "descendants of the Aedra who walked Tamriel and gave rise to the races of man and mer" in particular. However, this text contrasts the description given in HotW placing the classification prior to the point the descendants appear or Nu-Mantia Intercept claiming Auriel called "Aedra" at Convention (as Ehlnofex Wars and Convention are the same event told differently per MK). As such this might represent a third narrative/variation, a later development in Altmeri faith compared to the core religious texts.

And I won't go on further. I think that's literally all relevant sources anyway.

TLDR: There is a rather prevalent theme that affliction with (some form of) mortality, being genealogical ancestors to the life of Nirn and even having experienced a form of death, being traits that apply to the Aedra. In light of that, how it precisely matches the descriptions we have for the term "Ehlnofey", and how we've figures named among both groups (Trinimac, arguably Y'ffre who is identified as a "Divine"), related articles should reflect this apparent overlap/link (alongside alternative narratives like the Anuad or the variation introduced by texts like mystery of course). "Aedra" and "Ehlnofey" being not two cleanly separate classes of being but rather terms used to refer to the various groups of spirits that underwent creation in full in specific capacities/stages.

I know this is a really long read (apologies) but felt it was necessary for the discussion to present all relevant sources.

Excellent coverage of sources on the matter, I'd largely be in agreement. The Ehlnofey and Aedra are far from cleanly separated classes, and seem to encompass each other largely outside of Mystery of Artaeums third perspective, and Anuads unique case all around. Perhaps the page can be revamped to further focus on Ehlnofey as Earth bones (their most consistent tie by far), and the coverage of Aedra and other relevant spiris under that? With Artaeum's passage mentioned as a single out third pov, aside from that, and the 12 Worlds/Anuad one? Or would you propose further that Ehlnofey be merged into Aedra? There definitely needs to be changes to the page as is with the current exaggerated separation highlighted. The Entity (talk) 00:12, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I'd be on board with either, personally. Merging the articles makes the overlap more clear, but the same result could be achieved by separate articles as well depending on how one words them. Personally I'd lean a bit more towards merging and than explaining the situation in detail in a single page (relevant information once in one place, resolves any issues of what information to include in each page), but I could definitely see the merit in retaining a page that focuses on the "laws of nature" part (how they can be manipulated, their role in the Dwemer's research, so on) with and has less "general" information as well. Either way I don't feel that strongly about it as long as the core idea is communicated. Or perhaps in the form of a main page regarding the Aedra with a second page focusing primarily on the function of the Earthbones as laws of nature as a sub-section of that ? In a similar style as the Daedra page having Daedric Princes as a sub-section, somewhat ?--Gleaming Veil (talk) 01:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I would agree that the Aedra and Ehlnofey are roughly speaking about the same kind of spirits. I have argued (ish) before about the Ehlnofey War being the same as the war between Auri-El and Lorkhan, though I think the metaphors manifested differently. I agree with the core idea that there isn't a clean divide and their similitude should be mentioned. However, I strongly oppose a merge between the two pages because they emphasize different things entirely and I feel they are not exactly the same. As described, the Aedra seem to be the spirits that gave their all yet still remained divine in power. For example, the Covenant with Akatosh with St. Alessia, his avatar in TES IV: Oblivion, the blessings and shrines they give, as well as their distinct planets. The Ehlnofey seem to give their all and become semi-mortal on Nirn. The idea that the Aedra are Ehlnofey makes perfect sense to the elves, but humans believe themselves created by the Divines. I would argue "Kevin" the random Old Ehlnofey warrior of the Dawn Era wouldn't be classified as an Aedra, while the Aedra would all be Ehlnofey that have retained a level of power to still be seen as gods. (I hope my point of all non-Magna-Ge Aedra being Ehlnofey but not all Ehlnofey being Aedra makes sense, I'm quite tired atm). But all of that is besides my main point, which is the emphasis of each. The Aedra essentially refer to the gods, who are themselves mainly original spirits like Auri-El but also some mortals of later eras like Syrabane and Phynaster. This should be the emphasis that their page has for them; their divine role in the religions of mortals and their actions in the Dawn Era before Convention. The Ehlnofey are closer to the laws of nature, with Y'ffre as the only real "god" explicitly among them (while Auri-El and Trinimac were leaders of the Ehlnofey, Y'ffre is explicitly mentioned as a law-of-nature-defining Ehlnofey). They make Nirn what Nirn is rather than looking over Nirn as the gods do. Moreover, they are seen more than believed. Dringoth and the Bone Orchard are Ehlnofey afaik, as well as the Guardian spirits in Glenumbra, and they have a language that descends from them. In general, their lore is very different than that of the Aedra after Convention. While I think the concepts of the Ehlnofey War and war of the Aedra should be noted as likely being the same (sorry MindTrait0r), and they both represent similar (if not the same) spirits that took part in the foundation of the Mundus, there is too much lore outside and after that that should be emphasized separately in distinct pages. BananaKing5 (talk) 09:57, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The part about "Aedra" being "greater" spirits that remain gods while "Ehlnofey" are "lesser" spirits that become semi-mortal on Nirn in particular is not really a framing I agree with. A distinction based on such a criterion is not really one made in the texts pertaining to Dawn (or generally) as far as I can tell, spirits and the effect on them are never really split by such a trait or said to have been affected differently due to it. Moreover the core traits that define the Ehlnofey (a form of mortality/vulnerability to death, progenitorship) are generally said to apply to both definitions as mentioned above (thus all the references to even the Divines specifically as 'mortal" or "dead"), and we have members named among both groups. To frame the Ehlnofey as "lesser" spirits in particular would be in contradiction of how the elves view them, which is that their gods themselves were trapped in physical form of Nirn by creation and are their ancestors, as in ESO knowledge base: The Aldmeri Dominion has adopted as its symbol the eagle sigil of the High Elves of Summerset. For the Altmer, the high-soaring eagle represents their ancestors the Aedra, who came from the heavens and were trapped in physical form by the creation of Nirn. or how Auriel had to beg Anuiel to "take them back" and was rebuffed during the war/Convention per HotW. Most modern Altmer and Bosmer claim "direct descent" from Auriel, they exalt Trinimac and Mara and whatnot as the origin of their "ancestral lines", the concept of Ehlnofey, the ancestors of mortals can't really be separated from that of "Aedra" , at least in the context of elven belief, as ehlnofic descent is at the same time the reason "Aedra" are Aedra, ancestors, and the definition given for Ehlnofey (those who "had to make children to last" per HotW). Power isn't really a criterion for classification here, just like how a Daedra Prince, a Daedra Lord with or without a realm, and a normal Daedra are all Daedric. Auriel and the pantheon did end up becoming more revered but that in itself was a later development, leader or not he only came to occupy a greater place/supplant the place of the rest in elvish faith after a political shift. Trinimac too is called an Ehlnofey by some sources and is active in Nirn post-Convention. Imperial faith also doesn't really appear to link the concept to power, the more one gave the more revered one is, Magnus having sacrificed less makes him be seen as less revered and not eligible for Divine status compared to those who gave more, per Artorius. Dringoth and the Orchard group its important to note are a bit of a special case because they are outright trapped via Bosmeri magic, and they can't die and make the transition to Aetherius to exist outside Nirn because of that (their circumstances are more of an exception rather than representative of the circumstances of the group more broadly), while the Guardians themselves are Earth Bones (laws) and claim they are Y'ffre himself in some sense (or aspects thereof).

As to the overall point/page question, personally I'd be on board with having two pages with different emphasis provided the connection/overlap is explained, but in that case they need to be worded such as not to suggest a clean separation of nature/role that isn't there (avoiding implying such and which information should be repeated or go where being the tricky part with two pages). An approach similar to the one used for the Daedra page and its sub-headers might be a way to split the difference here, I think. Having a main page that focuses on the Aedra as a more broadly and than a sub-header for the Ehlnofey defining them as an overlapping concept under the lens of certain beliefs, perhaps.--Gleaming Veil (talk) 12:06, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it's important to note the human perspective as well. While "Aedra" is an elven term, it has been used by humans as well for their gods. For instance, Bishop Artorius says "Father Akatosh might be considered the most 'active' Aedra of all". The connection between all Aedra being Ehlnofey and all Ehlnofey being Aedra is one that perfectly fits the Elven views, but ignores the human (specifically Nordic and Nede [I think], and not Yokudan) views which believe they were created on the Throat of the World. The distinction between "greater" and "lesser" spirits is one that explains this difference as the Aedra are gods to the humans while the Ehlnofey aren't (except Jephre). Even among Elves, they used to worship all ancestors (Aedra and Ehlnofey being the exact same to them), but then they began only worshipping the greatest ones (now the Aedra as we know them are described while the other Ehlnofey disappear). It can be argued who is right and who is wrong, but that's a whole other discussion. Or maybe the Psijics are right in the Ehlnofey being descendants of the Aedra, as Mystery of Artaeum points out. There's also the fact that the Aedric gods having distinct planets (AKHAT, RHET, KYNRT, etc) and parts of Aetherius (Sovngarde for Shor, the Forest of Dreams for Kyne, the Spilled Sands for Alkosh) while the Ehlnofey are specifically the Earth Bones and tied to Nirn specifically. And the Earth Bones can be manipulated by Dwemer technology and Alteration magic, while Aedric gods can't (except for the Marukhati Selective I guess). Overall, there is strong similarity in nature between the Aedra and Ehlnofey, but it could be argued they're not exactly equal. However, this distinction is more so my understanding of things than anything concrete, and is not a hill I'm willing to die on. Maybe the distinction is merely the inexact nature of beliefs, and in truth they're identical.

But it also wasn't meant to be my main point for their separation. My main point was that after Convention, the Aedra are only really talked about in terms of religion and Aetherius while the Ehlnofey are mainly talked about as nature spirits and ancient semi-mortal ancestors (kind of existing between fully divine Aedra and mortal Elven). I felt this should warrant unique pages to show the different emphasis on each group. Regardless of ontological congruence as pre-Convention ancestor spirits, the cultural descriptions of them differ slightly before Convention and rather drastically after it. However, currently I feel like this distinction may be possible to make in a single page if done right. Perhaps as Gleaming Veil said, the Aedra page could broadly introduce the pre-Convention spirits, then most of the page discusses the religious significance of the Aedra and the idea of "Aedric" entities of Aetherius, then there is a separate header discussing the Ehlnofey in a not-so in-depth way (but not merely brief). The Ehlnofey page would go in depth on the Earth Bones and their role as the laws of nature, the fact they have a language, and perhaps the Wandering vs Old distinction, while still pointing to their Aedric nature. So I think I mostly agree with Gleaming Veil on a broader Aedra page with sub-headers, but with two distinct pages describing the different emphasis placed on each group. BananaKing5 (talk) 19:09, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Ehlnofey/Earthbones are Aedric in nature, but the concepts are far from synonymous enough to ever merge. Just because the Aedra are *bound* to the Bones of the Earth, does not mean they themselves are Bones of the Earth. Y'ffre and his ilk are completely inactive spirits that gave themselves fully to lay the foundation of Nirn itself. Akatosh and his ilk are mostly inactive spirits that gave up most of their agency over creation, but unlike Y'ffre and crew reside off of Nirn on their celestial namesake planets. In general, page merges only need to be done in the event concepts this important are fully inseparable from one another, which isn’t the case in this instance. Dcking20 (talk) 21:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Also take the book that says Aedra and Daedra are exact terms, with as big of a grain of salt possible. Different cultures have completely different understandings of what category of beings are considered ancestors and not. From the pro Aedric pantheons of the Altmer and Imperials, to the pro Daedric pantheon of the Dunmer, to the mixed bag of Aedra, Daedra, Earthbone, and Magna Ge alike that make up the shared ancestor pantheon of the Khajiit. Dcking20 (talk) 21:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

To expound a bit more on the elvish perspective, I think its important to note that both "Ehlnofey" and "Aedra" as terms apply to a pre-Convention timeframe. Ehlnofey are "pre-Convention spirits" per MK's quote, and Akatosh called "the Aedra" to Convention, which perk MK is the Ehlnofex War told differently. Both terms are used in the pre-Convention frame and their defining characteristics also came about prior to that point per HotW. In addition, per Phrastus of Elinhhir: "Minor Aedric spirits definitely exist, but they are rarely encountered, as Mundus is considered off-limits since Magnus withdrew from it at the moment of creation. I know of no successful attempts to contact such spirits, probably because Aedric entities simply do not respond to mortals—at least not since the ages of myth." ' So it is at least thought by the elves both that minor Aedric spirits (for a certain value of "minor", not gods at least) exist and qualify as Aedra, they're just comparatively rare to encounter in a personal sense. A "lesser" nature compared to true greater spirits like Akatosh or such does not disqualify one as being an Aedra. And if we were to focus on the mortality/progenitorship aspect, that is directly mentioned to apply to the Divines in particular as well in a number of sources as mentioned above (Ehlnofey is itself an umbrella term of sorts denoting both spirits that gave themselves fully to become the laws of nature following the example of Y'ffre and spirits that didn't do so and became progenitors to mortals, per elven belief, the second sub-group being where named ancestors of the elves like Auri-El would fall). As such, while not all spirits would have realms or be as divorced from the ability of mortals to influence to the same degree, that wouldn't divorce them from the "Aedra" definition, just like how a Dremora or an Ogrim or a Scamp are not divorced from the "Daedra" definition despite not being Daedric Princes or Daedra Lords. Being a god and being an "Aedra" are not the same thing, just like how being a "Daedra" and being a god are not the same thing (being different parameters). The same applies to an approach in faith, that different spirits are not all revered to the exact same degree wouldn't really impact that base definition.

As to the human perspective, as BananaKing mentioned, that has its differences and should definitely be noted in any associated page alongside other cultural understandings. This, however, I think is its own matter. Human faiths hold mortal life to be created by the Aedra rather than descended from them (barring the Yokudans which more parallel elvish views) and generally hold the concept of Aedric descent to be "elven conceit" (as per the "Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes" text). Because of this there is no direct genealogical link for them between mortals and either Aedra or Ehlnofey (regardless of how one defines either term). In addition human religious texts or sources generally don't expound upon terms like "Ehlnofey" or "Earth Bone" like elven ones do, with the few that do mention them, as a namedrop at that, generally mentioned as referencing other perspectives (eg Altmeri), and in any case not providing any additional contrasting definitions aside from the others already mentioned (Mystery, Anuad) or impacting elven perspectives. Human beliefs (barring Yokudan) fall more along the lines of a different narrative like the Anuad in this regard, Nords have no known creation myth, for Bretons we only have "The Light and Dark" which has Aedra and Daedra as having an entirely different origin (being born from the energies of the Light and Dark through the beliefs of the "people of Et'Ada") and Imperials directly split elven gods and human gods (Auriel is not Akatosh). None of the associated myths themselves mentions the term Ehlnofey/Earthbones.

Overall different cultural views would stand on their own in parallel to each other in the pages they show up in. Further nuance regarding circumstances, such as for example how Dringoth and the Orchard group became trapped due to Bosmeri magic or shifts in faith across time would emerge through the wording within the page itself.

Either way, most of this is probably a side topic. Personally I'm not particularly concerned with whether its one or two pages as long as the core information comes across that, depending on cultural lens and applicable to that worldview at least, Aedra and Ehlnofey are not cleanly separate terms denoting different classes of being, but rather overlapping definitions. The other cultural lenses likewise being present with their own definitions (eg Anuad Aedra and Ehlnofey are not the same as Altmeri Aedra and Ehlnofey, mortals in the human view are not Aedric descendants but creations and so on). I think the overall result can be achieved just the same with either one or two pages, provided careful wording and separation of different views. Overall I think a model of two pages and a sub-header alongside another page that goes on further detail in less broad information/focuses on different lore aspects while mentioning the link works fine, its the wording itself that's more important. So I think me, BananaKing and The Entity are broadly in agreement this model working here.--Gleaming Veil (talk) 21:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I kind of envision the Lore:Aedra page as roughly 40% about what Aedric spirits are (including the Ehlnofey), 40% about the cultural views of them (mostly pertaining to all the religion stuff and the Aedric gods), and 20% about the Ehlnofey either by introducing them or just using {{Lore:Ehlnofey}}. Then the Lore:Ehlnofey page goes in depth on their law-of-nature role, their language, the Wandering and Old Ehlnofey split, etc., with the introductory area describing their nature as Aedric pre-Convention ancestor spirits. BananaKing5 (talk) 23:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I like it, I think the proposed layout works quite well.--Gleaming Veil (talk) 23:57, 26 October 2024 (UTC)