Lore talk:Dragonborn

First

There is a line claiming that Alessia is the first dragonborn, I was under the impression that Miraak was the first though?Woodhouse (talk) 07:34, 10 January 2014 (GMT)Woodhouse

Alessia is the first associated with the title Dragonborn. No one knew about Miraak until much, much later. Jeancey (talk) 07:36, 10 January 2014 (GMT)

Alessia wasn't Dragon'born' (born with a dragon soul), she was blessed with it by Akatosh during her life. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 07:59, 10 January 2014 (GMT)

Note about Miraak needs reworded: "Miraak was not known outside of the isle of Solstheim until well into the Fourth Era.". It can be misunderstood, because he actually was known as a Dragonborn before his imprisonment/rebellion - During the Dragon War in Skyrim when Hakon interacted with him. If you believe The Guardian and the Traitor, Solstheim didn't exist is a separate island back then. --Jimeee (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2014 (GMT)

I'll take a look at Guardian and the Traitor and try to reword the note. Jeancey (talk) 18:05, 20 January 2014 (GMT)

Right, I thought so. Guardian and the Traitor never gives any names or dates aside "long-ago". Thus, Miraak himself wasn't known outside of the Skaal, who lived on what is now Solstheim. He was simply known as "the Traitor". Also, these tales come from legends of the Skaal, so it is possible that they hadn't even heard these legends until after the event took place. Also, the book specifically states about the splitting of Solstheim from Skyrim being the result of the battle as "the realm of pure fantasy." So you can't use the book to make a point that the book itself claims never actually happened. It also never mentions that Miraak is Dragonborn at all. That part is completely unknown. It simply says he knows dragon language and can use the Thu'um. From the Greybeards, we know that both of those things can be learned by non-dragonborns with time and practice. Jeancey (talk) 18:10, 20 January 2014 (GMT)

Yes, the legend is strictly Skaal in origin - but "pure fantasy" aside, it's still treated as a possible truth, much like the fantastical legends from the Dawn Era. If you believe this event didn't happen, then it probably should not be given such precedence on the Solstheim lore page either. Also, it's a pretty iron clad inference that Hakon One-Eye knew Miraak was a Dragonborn when he asked for his help in the war. The way it reads now, it essentially says that Miraak was isolated on Solstheim and unknown on the mainland, yet somehow Hakon knew about him and asked him for help. --Jimeee (talk) 18:32, 20 January 2014 (GMT)

I'm not saying it didn't happen 100%, my main point was that Miraak wasn't widely known in the empire. Not being widely known doesn't mean that some people didn't know him, but the vast majority of people clearly didn't know who or what he was, Hakon being an obvious exception. Jeancey (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2014 (GMT)

I see Minor Edits has tweaked the note. Less confusion with the wording now. --Jimeee (talk) 18:47, 20 January 2014 (GMT)

The main page translates "dovahkiin" to mean "dragon hunter child", while thuum.org renders "dragon hunter child" as "dov ah kiir". Am I missing something here, or is this merely a typo? Ckwirey (talk) 22:08, 26 February 2015 (GMT)

thuum.org is hardly a source, it's a fan project of creating new words, and also may have incorrect information on 'canon' words. 213.138.81.235 09:53, 27 February 2015 (GMT)

Last

I figure this is the best place to ask this: where, exactly, is the title "The Last Dragonborn" pulled from? Is it from some dialogue with Miraak? Sanguine Prince (talk) 20:09, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

The Book of the Dragonborn. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 20:25, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Nerevarine =/= dragonborn

Despite the The Lost Prophecy explicitly detailing the fact that "dragon-born" refers to "[being] Born under foreign stars and the sign of the Dragon -- the Imperial sign.", this page contains such a reference connecting it to dragonborns/Dovahkiin.
It's pretty obvious that the "dragon-born" (with hyphenation) in The Lost Prophecy is NOT a dragonborn as detailed in this page, based both on the fact that there is an explaination as to why and the fact there is no further reference to the Nerevarine's presumed connection with Akatosh as a dragonborn.
It's also worth mentioning that pre-TES V, the concept of a dragonborn/dovakiin didn't exist as it did in TES III, so there should be zero connection between the Nerevaine as detailed in The Lost Prophecy and this page anyway. The comment in the notes section is both redundant and misleading, only suggesting that there is a connection (suggestive language: "However this may have been...") when there is a very explicit comment that dragon-born refers to the fact the player is simply a foreigner (born under the sign/banner of the Empire ect.)— Unsigned comment by ThomasTheWest (talk • contribs) at 13:07 on 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this issue was brought up a while back, and again over the years - see here: User_talk:Minor_Edits#Dragon-born. The note has changed a few times since, overall its probably still worth at least mentioning the term was used pre-Skyrim and that this is Gilvas Barelo's perspective from a lore POV, even if what you are saying is likely correct. Jimeee (talk) 09:28, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

It's not so much a case of it being likely correct, it's made fairly explicit that "dragon-born" does not mean "dragonborn", I'm not sure what possible connection can be made between it considering the fact it says, outright, "Born under foreign stars and the sign of the Dragon -- the Imperial sign." in the in-game text.--ThomasTheWest (talk) 22:20, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

On the "Dragonborn" Emperors, Blood vs Soul

To clarify, I am wondering on the difference between having the soul of a Dragon vs having the blood of a Dragon. Does it ever say if those of the Alessian / Septim bloodlines are "true" Dragonborns? As I recall, Alessia only made a pact with Akatosh and was granted his blood (she was not born with the blood/soul of a Dragon, thus not really a Dragonborn, more a Dragonmade. But this helps show the difference between having blood vs soul), which was then passed to her successors. While I am very sure Talos Stormcrown/Tiber Septim was a true Dragonborn (hence his extensive use of the Thu'um demonstrating a natural affinity for it), his descendant's ability to use the Amulet of Kings seems more likely to be due to just having the blood of a dragon (genetic heritage of Talos), but not the soul.73.151.109.177 06:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Being Dragonborn and having Dragonblood are synonymous. Evidence of this can be found in Potema using the Thu'um, as seen in her Skyrim appearance, as well as Reman II consecrating the Dragonborn blood seal of Sky Haven Temple, sourced here. Additionally, Martin Septim was referred to as Dragonborn by the Blades, the premier institution of Dragonlore as can be seen by Esbern. Hope this clears things up! Mindtrait0r (talk) 17:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Dovahkiin Translation

The hover-text at the start of the page states that Dovahkiin translates to Dragon Hunter Child; I can find no source directly confirming this, and it is also, forgive me, a stupid translation to make given the number of sources we have for a direct translation to "Dragonborn", for example the trailer, the official strategy guide, the in-game book Songs of Skyrim, and no doubt many more sources.

"Dov" does indeed mean Dragon, yes, and "Ah" does mean Hunter, but that doesn't mean that the word is supposed to be read like that. Think about it like reading multiple words that aren't separated by spaces; you have to divide the letters into words that make the most sense, right? Same principle here.

Also, bear in mind, this very wiki states on the Dragon Language page that, not only does Dovahkiin translate to Dragonborn, but also that "kiin" by itself translates to "born", not just to "child". The citation used on the page is the official strategy guide. Songs of Skyrim also has "dragon" as a translation for "dovah".

I recommend that the hover-text either be changed to state that Dovahkiin translates to Dragonborn (or perhaps "Dragon-Born" or "Dragon Born"), or that the hover text is done away with completely, and the page just directly says that Dragonborn is Dovahkiin in Dragon Language. I would have changed it myself, but I thought it would be best to bring it up on the talk page instead.

-Shiftydino (talk) 20:19, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Kiin is definitely Born, not Child. This is confirmed at the end of the Prima Guide, where there's a glossary of Dragon-tongue words. Among them is Kiin, where it is listed as Born. Kiir, the word right under it, is Child, which is probably where the confusion comes from. Mindtrait0r (talk) 22:33, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I thought that might be the case, seeing how thuum.org doesn't have Child as a translation for Kiin. I didn't want to bring that up however, as I'm aware that thuum.org is not an official source. Thanks for checking that out. I also see you've gone ahead and removed the hover-text for this page, nice. Glad to see this has been resolved. I've also edited the Dragon Language page to remove the incorrect translation for Kiin. --Shiftydino (talk) 15:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)